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Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    My only complaint about the officiating team yesterday was the offside. England brought great line speed but were constantly off side. Unless someone changed the last foot rule and forgot to mention it.

    It’s amazing how Englands discipline improved after the red. 10 penalties prior to Red card and only 3 after.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,959 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    Rugby has a massive problem with red cards these days. So easy to get one, even accidentally bring clumsy while fatigued. I suppose composure could be seen as a skill in itself. But so many big games effectively decides early with sending off. That said, I do believe Ireland would have won yesterday 15 v 15



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Rugby has a massive problem with red cards these days

    Rugby has an even bigger problem with head injuries and lawsuits.

    Red cards don't ruin games, it's the muppets who still think it's OK to hit a guy like that who ruin games. It's mildly depressing how slow they are on the uptake. Steward wasn't fatigued, he saw a chance to soften a guy up and he went for it.

    But there's no going back on this. We can't.

    BTW, Ireland got through the entire tournament without a single card. It can be done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,599 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The slagging of the rules and how professional officials read/interpret and enforce them is tiresome.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I think that’s really harsh on Stewart tbh.

    It was a split second, and while I completely understand the red, to me it looked like it was a natural reaction, bracing himself.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    Fantastic day and win. Was my third time seeing us win the lot in person, I can’t imagine there are too many that have seen all four! Look the red card was harsh, I think we would have found a way to win anyway, but this made it easier. If roles were reversed, I can imagine the reaction would be a little different. It was unfortunate for Hugo, one of our players of tournament, but this was a rugby collision in my view, perhaps a yellow, but never a red. The incident later in game warranted a red more in my view.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,098 ✭✭✭Augme



    Anyone who thinks he did it to injure Keenan is living in fantasy land, or just some irrational hatred of English people land. A bizarre take on the incident tbh.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Discipline absolutely is a skill.

    In the 2021 6 Nations, Ireland picked up 2 red cards for the first time. Since then their discipline has been brilliant.

    In 21 Tests since, we’ve had 2 yellow cards.

    I make it that our opponents have had 16 yellows and 7 reds.

    That’s too stark a difference to put down to clumsiness and fatigue.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen



    Find me a rugby player whose 'natural reaction' when a player is running at them is to turn their body and lead with the elbow.

    He didn't even try to wrap his arms, which any rugby player no matter the level they're playing at would do. That's the natural reaction of a rugby player, not turning your body so you're leading with your elbow.

    I'm sorry, lads, but it's absolute nonsense to suggest the red is in any way harsh. All day, everyday. There were so many other things Stewart could have done in that situation but he ultimately chose to show his elbow and it hit Keenan's head.

    I'm sure he never meant for Keenan to go off for a HIA and not return to the game, but stupid actions have consequences and he knew what he was doing by turning his body like that.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof




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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,484 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    The only place, IRL or on the internet I've seen anyone claim Steward's actions were deliberate and a clear red is boards. Absolutely everyone I've spoken to or whose opinions I've read think it was a really harsh call, a penalty at best, unavoidable, unfortunate, a rugby incident or 'I suppose a red if you apply the laws to the letter but the law is inflexible and not adapted to real life situations'. Peyper himself seemed to be of the latter opinion going by his placatory attitude in giving the card.

    On a positive note, nobody accused the ref of cheating or corruption over the incident.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭Brewster


    Nonsense, there is a player running at him at pace, he doesn’t open up his arms and embrace the tackle, he would have got smashed and hurt himself potentially. Stewart’s reaction is a defensive brace position waiting for someone to hit him. Just think about your body would move if something was approaching you at pace, you’d turn sideways and brace yourself. It was an unfortunate incident, but never a red card.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭squidgainz


    Yeah I got lambasted for saying the red "looked harsh" lol



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭farmerval


    One thing yesterday and particularly after the red card I thought Ireland were trying to force the game too much. When we possibly needed just to play rugby and string phases together and stretch and already panting England, we were trying to play through tight spaces in the middle. Actually we rarely played the ball through the hands into the wide channels. I know England's rush defence had a say in that but we never stood off a little or chipped over the rush.

    On the red card, the oncoming train of litigation along with the appalling images from so many games of players concussed may finish rugby as a sport. The huge driver despite the image of pushy Daddy's is often pushy mammy's ferrying kids here there and everywhere to further their prospects in sport. When kids are 6,7,8 10 their playing loads of sports and the ones who'll make it in one sport could quite likely make it in several others. If rugby cannot sort the issues that lead to concussions it may not continue as a sport.

    There is absolutely no industry or company that would allow it's employees face such danger on a regular basis. Any such industry or profession would be shut down immediately.

    What if one of the current Irish Team in ten years time can't remember winning the grand slam. Little consolation being at a 25 year anniversary weekend if you can't remember any of it. Offhand have 3? Irish players had concussions over the last 7-8 weeks?

    Rugby has to do whatever it takes to sort this issue. The incredible conditioning of the players and the immense physicality of modern rugby has turned rugby into an incredibly physical contest.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    So if someone is running at you on a rugby pitch, you don't tackle them? You show them your shoulder or your elbow instead?

    That's a new one for me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,599 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Not sure anyone claiming he wanted to inflict injury and that there was malice. As per game rules it was a red. End of. Players shouldn’t be allowed away with these incidents based off their poor judgment calls. How on earth would the game be officiated with this attitude?’



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,704 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    If that stat is true it’s very interesting. People tend to think once they lose a man their team has no chance but I’ve always felt it means the 14 man team will get reffed a bit more sympathetically after especially if it’s a red where there’s no intent to harm. It’s human nature as opposed to any conscious bias.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You don’t tackle them unless they have the ball. Keenan collected the ball a fraction of a second before contact.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    I couldn't care what Rob Kearney's take on it is. Ex-professionals far and wide are constantly trying to mitigate against blows to the head because it was what was happening in their day and you just got on with it.

    However, let's take what Kearney says on its merits. Freddie Stewart has committed himself to a tackle and then at the last second has tried to recklessly back out of it by turning his body. His actions resulted in a player leaving the field for the entire game with a head injury. He was bolt upright, he turned his body and his elbow hit Keenan's head. That is a red card. Stewart showed zero duty of care in his actions. Tough sh*t.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,098 ✭✭✭Augme



    Basically every rugby players natural reaction is to turn and potentially brace for impact when a player is running at them without the ball. It happenes every time in a kick and chase situation for example. Keenan gaining possession of the ball a split second before the collision has made the situation. Its rugby though, sometimes you just can't account for the bounce of a ball.


    Under the laws it probably is a red card, but the laws are flawed. World rugby need to take a long hard think about where they want the game to go and what are they trying to achieve. Its a contact sport, people will get head injuries. It happens in almost everyone other sport.


    Again, I've not seen anyone outside of Irish people who think yesterday's decision being s red is good for the sport and the position that should be place long term.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    However, let's take what Kearney says on its merits. Freddie Stewart has committed himself to a tackle…

    That’s literally not at all what Kearney said...



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Actually no, because if the ball is lost in that split second then that mitigation is taken into account on the basis of Stewart is already committed to the tackle.

    If Stewart makes the tackle he's already committed to then this conversation never happens. He chose to show his elbow and it hit Keenan in the head. Thems the breaks, but the duty of care is on him and his actions led to a player going off for a HIA and never returning.

    How anyone can say it's not a red card or that it's a harsh red card astounds me. It really does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,534 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Wish i could say I was shocked they didn't get pinged for it, but it's par for the course these days. At some points it was almost comical how far forward they were, especially further out the line. You could hear the crowd jeering repeatedly for it.

    It's an area I wish WR would put better emphasis on. Defenses are already stifling enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭squidgainz




  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Ok, so he's running towards a player where the ball is going to and is not trying to tackle him? He's just running towards him and showing the elbow instead?

    Honestly lads, the takes here are wild this morning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭squidgainz


    Forget the red card ,harsh or not Are we winning the world cup?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56,599 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The World Cup is a different beast altogether. Huge amounts goes into it. We will be a tough match for any the big boys, as they will be for us.

    I just think the SA/NZ lads seem to manage the WC tournaments the best. France also seem to gel and excel in these 7 game tournaments. Throw in Aus and Argentina and it’s a huge task.

    I think we’re around 3rd favorites to win



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Honestly lads, the takes here are wild this morning.

    Well, we agree on something. Gonna leave it there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,617 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    The fact that keenan had to go off because of the hit says all you need to know about the hit being worthy of a red card or not.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,704 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    It really doesn’t. And if it had been Steward running into Keenan’s elbow you’d have a different view. Unfortunate collision. Penalty and a yellow (which if it was for Keenan I’d still argue over but grudgingly accept) would have been a fairer call.



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