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Is this a valid acceptable reason to end a tenancy?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Thanks. Yes I hope things work out for everyone involved. I can't see the tenant being overly happy but at the end of the day the house belongs to me. I was paying for it long before the tenant was on the scene.

    I could go down the road of selling immediately but I genuinely wish to help my brother and I believe all this news about local authorities and housing bodies buying all rental properties is just waffle and delay tactics by the government. They've had six months during the eviction ban and did absolutely nothing.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    Get a solicitor that has experience doing notices, to make sure it's all correct.

    NO ONE, will give a damn whether its your property,not threshold, the State, rtb, their job is to make sure they have one less unhoused tenant on their books, they would rather you never get your property back because its one less to deal with. You will be vilified, guilted, blamed, whatever, private individuals are now expected to fulfill obligations the State won't. With eviction ban ended/ing, Id be getting the ball rolling. While you could tell the tenant some information,it won't garner sympathy,discuss with solicitor but Id consider making notice eviction is for your brothers and family use and yours (in case they change the law to not include siblings) and ensure they cant say its not suited to so many people. Be accurate,because if they catch you out on a typo or a factual error,my understanding is process starts again. I would be matter of fact and express concern,sympathy lightly, dont go into detail with tenant further,aside from giving them info,it cant make things better. If you say nothing and serve notice via solicitor they won't be happy,if you tell them it's for you/brother/whatever family member, they still won't be happy. Be prepared for this to drag out and scupper your plans for you and brother,namely as market is so screwed,there might not be places for your tenant to go,due to so much interference from The State,properties are being held back unoccupied as a result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Thanks. Could you recommend an experienced solicitor?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    I dont know anyone that deals with that, I dealt with things myself and sold up,but that was before eviction bans so was possible,not that it was without problems, worse now imo. I suggest you ring around in your area,or Google search with appropriate search terms,make a list and ring people



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭dontmindme




  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    I'd have thought it fairly obvious, you're a residential landlord and they're the residential tenancy board. If anyone can tell you what's required then surely it's them?



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Sorry I picked you up wrong. I didn't think the RTB were helpful to landlords, I thought they were pro tenant.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    at the end of the day the house belongs to me. I was paying for it long before the tenant was on the scene.

    Just to pick up on this, holding this view won't be helpful. You entered a business arrangement so all emotion should be removed. If you wanted complete control over the property then you shouldn't have entered an agreement that handed the tenant a whole bunch of rights to your asset - however, you're here now so just make sure that everything is done by the book to avoid any potential delays.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    Holding the view that you own your own property won't be helpful?

    The OP is serving notice exactly as per the lease and rental regulations, and is entitled to full control over her property under the law.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The OP does not have full control over the property until the tenant has moved out. Using emotive language about how they were paying for it long before the tenant arrived is not helpful when trying to regain posession.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    prepare the statutory decelerations yourself in it say you need it back for your brother. Don't mention selling it. Get it checked by a solicitor. When your brother finishes their own home you are then free to re-rent it but you need to give old tenant first refusal. You could leave it empty or sell it.

    I don't know if you intend to charge your brother rent but if it's fully off the rental market for 24 months you can set the rent at the market rate.

    Once you serve the notice on the tenant and RTB they have 28 days to contest it. After that I would assume it's deemed valid. The risk is that they will over hold and your brother won't be able to uses it. They would need a solid plan B. If they do over hold don't entertain any questions of the notice been valid, even from the RTB, the legislation says once served they have 28 days so hold them to that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    It seems to me you hold a strange view in regards to someone's else asset.

    When you go to a hotel, do you acquire extra rights over the hotel owner because you paid a week to stay there?

    It is just the same with rental, you pay for the service of using other person asset. It is a service.

    Remember the shills only get paid when you react to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The board refuse to give legal advice. They have to resolve disputes and don't want people saying they relied on advice from the board at a dispute hearing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You need to be careful what you accept as "advice". There are posts here which tell you what the poster themselves thinks is "fair" or what the relevant laws and rules "should" be, not what they are. What something thinks a rule "should" be is irrelevant unless that person is a judge sitting in front of you or a legislator trying to change that rule/law.

    It is something that a lot more people need to get their heads around before they willingly grant to other people possession of, and rights to, valuable assets they own.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    My view is not strange at all.

    The OP appears to be holding an emotive view on the asset. This asset was rented out to the tenant (through a business agreement) who now legally holds certain rights over it. To come out with stuff about how they were paying for the asset long before the tenant is irrelevant when it comes to the legal agreement between the two parties. If the OP were to present this point to the tenant, it is likely just to piss the tenant off making them less accommodating to requests from the OP.

    As for your hotel comparison, it isn't a fair comparison unless the OP was doing AirBnB because someone staying in a hotel is a guest and not a tenant. A hotel guest has no rights to the accommodation. The OP's tenant has legally enforcable rights!



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    My wording may be poorly judged therefore I think it is best to employ a solicitor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,026 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    Marie, you can give a reason, that you are selling the house, which you intend to do anyway. And then put it on the market for a time your brother is not living there yet. And when your brother moves in, you can withhold the sale for few months.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    The issue I see here is if the tenant is allowed first refusal my brother won't be able to use the house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    That's why discuss with a solicitor who deals with how best to approach, so you dont get tied up in knots regarding it being for brother/your use, make sure its accurate and cant be disputed imo,well worth a few hundred, you will have to ring around and see who says they have dealt with this kind of thing and it's a service they are willing and able to provide.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    When you find this solicitor who deals with tenants please do let us know and the cost involved in it.


    The way I see it, more and more landlords will exit the market and the worse will get for general public.

    Remember the shills only get paid when you react to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,026 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    But he is your brother. So if you could vacate the house for him, you also can offer it to him first. I think.

    I remember, when I got a notice, it was written there that I have 28 days to write back to them that I am willing to return to the house, when/if it will be available again. So if they won't write to you in that period of time, you won't have to offer it to them. But it was few years ago. Things might have changed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    My reply to your comment meant that I'm worried if I say that I'm selling, new legislation giving tenants first refusal to purchase will stop any plans for me to allow my brother to use the house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭howiya


    This is wrong on two counts and people have thanked the post. Shows the OP really should get professional advice.

    1) The period during which the notice to the tenant can be contested is 90 days not 28 days.

    2) Do not assume it hasn't been contested if you haven't heard back from the RTB by the end of the 90 day period. Tenant if planning on contesting could wait till the final day to contest it to elongate the process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    Sorry shows how much I know and why LL's are selling. Used to be 28 days to contest it. Personally if the RTB accepted a case 28/90 days after aka on the last day I'd sue them for any cost and unpaid rent. The law is the law we all have to follow it.



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    This asset was rented out to the tenant (through a business agreement) who now legally holds certain rights over it.

    As does the landlord, one of which is the right to do what the OP is trying to do. You can't crow about a tenant's legal rights and their landlord's contractual obligations while ignoring the OPs legal rights and the tenant's obligations.


    @Marie1976 "Sorry I picked you up wrong. I didn't think the RTB were helpful to landlords, I thought they were pro tenant."

    They claim to be completely independent, but this is hogwash. Ask anyone with any experience of dealing with them and you'll see your above statement is correct. There are certain issues where they'll point blank refuse to talk to you if you're a landlord. If you're ever seeking advice from them, call up and pretend to be a tenant and that your landlord is threatening to do [insert what you actually want to do] and they'll speak to you readily enough.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    As does the landlord, one of which is the right to do what the OP is trying to do. You can't crow about a tenant's legal rights and their landlord's contractual obligations while ignoring the OPs legal rights and the tenant's obligations.

    I never said that either side had obligations. I merely made the point that the tenant currently has rights to the property when the OP posted this and that by mentioning this would not be helpful in any discussion between the two parties...

    at the end of the day the house belongs to me. I was paying for it long before the tenant was on the scene.




  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    I know you never mentioned obligations.......that's my point, though, with those rights come certain obligations, namely GTFO when the landlord needs it back. You said "The tenant has rights", as if that trumps everything else. The landlord also has rights (to reclaim the property), and (in this instance) they supercede the tenant's rights (to remain in the property and use it as their home).

    In this case, the tenant's rights mean SFA when held up against the OPs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    All the tenant has to do here, and will be encouraged to do by all, is to easily manipulate the time they are overholding property to last until your brothers house is finished and your reason to have a family member in the property is gone. You are better off serving notice on the grounds that you are selling and just be done with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    My brother said he would be quite happy to wait until he can use my house before starting construction work as it will save him considerable costs.

    How will the tenants manipulate this?

    I also do not have to specify a reason other than he wishes to use the house.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    I know people waiting on tenants to vacate for over 4 years now. Rest assured, if they dont want to move, they wont be moving.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    I agree they might be able to delay but not indefinitely.

    Do you mind me asking why it's taking so long? Did the landlord make mistakes with the notice?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Different in both cases. One of them was out by a day on some date specified on the notice. Back to square one. Then you had tenants having nervous breakdowns and getting new dates, which were very far off in the future. Then you had eviction bans. And now they are still stalling (nervous breakdown again). Any excuse will push it out and if they want to stay they will know this.

    Tenants can delay for years without much effort. They are coached by charities on doing this if they ask them how to do it. Anyway not every tenant is like that, so hopefully if you have a good relationship wioth yours they will play ball for the dates you want. Just make sure you push them to start looking as soon as you give notice though instead of only starting lookng in the last few weeks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Thanks. Wow is it any wonder that landlords are fleeing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Its no wonder at all. Any landlords staying after the last eviction ban really have only themselves to blame when they are ruined by more legislation in the years to come. They may never get their property back, even to sell up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭howiya


    The law is the law and we all have to follow it but if the RTB accepted a case within the time frames set down by legislation you'd sue them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I agree with the poster. It's a terrible thing to do for something so trivial. I'm long out of Ireland but it would do you good to imagine how disruptive this will be to someone's life in the current climate.

    Yes you're of course allowed to do it but we're also allowed to make judgements on the character of those who do it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    Thanks for your comment. When I rented first I don't remember it being mandatory to provide housing for life.

    I do not view supporting a family member over a non family member as trivial. Perhaps you don't value family to the same extent.

    Any step I take will be done to the letter of the law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    If the tenant get 180 day notice and has 90 days to contest the notice then opens a case on day 179 which the RTB accept I'd be pissed and would push to have the case dropped or push them for compensation for taking the case when original 90 days had lapsed



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    The problem is that renting used to be something you did in your 20's then you bought, move to a council house flat... renting wasn't social housing or a long term thing. It was part of growing up and convenient. Then the state sold off it housing stock and never replaced it. To deflect responsibility they've created a renters against landlords. They've passed so many laws and made so many changes it would make your head spin. So now landlords have had enough and are selling and not been replaced.



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    I had a case where a tenant contested the validity of the notice they were given.

    Can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like.........entitled to 90 days notice, gave 120 days as a precaution (and because it was Christmas time), notice contested on day 100, case opened with RTB. Until this stage, they had given me no indication they would contest it.

    At the very start of the RTB hearing (2 months later), I asked how come the case was going ahead, considering 100 days was in contradiction of the prescribed 28* days to contest the validity of the notice. RTB adjudicator said "that limit only applies with valid notices". I queried this interpretation and asked her to elaborate..........

    "so, according to the RTB.......you have 28 days to contest a notice and query its validity, unless that notice is invalid, in which case there is no time limit?.......which further means, that an RTB case on whether or not a notice is valid can ONLY be opened on VALID notices, is this correct?"

    Her answer was yes.


    *increased to 90 days since



  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Marie1976


    I'm a little lost by your comment. If your notice was valid how could it be contested after all that time?



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    Join the club. Still doesn't make any sense to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    I'd ask them to give that in writing and have they got the opinion of a barrister that it complies with the law because I'll be getting one.

    What happened in the end? Did you rule against you. Do you still have the property ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    Moral of the story seems to be to keep the notice period as short as is legally possible, no good deed goes unpunished.

    They've just created a completely nasty environment.

    Presumably appeals aren't valid after the final date on the notice- although nothing would surprise me.



  • Posts: 5,869 [Deleted User]


    Lost the case, had to reinstate the tenant until they left under threat of a wrongful eviction if i didn't (€20k fine), had to allow the other tenants to break the lease and leave early (conflict between them was the reason for the notice in the 1st place), also had to allow the reinstated tenant to sublet the other room as they couldn't afford the full rent on their own and refusal could be seen as 'constructive eviction'.

    Got burned by the subletting tenant when they stopped paying rent and the valid notice to evict them was due to expire in late March 2020....then Covid came to town, so no more evictions for any reason until August that year.

    He eventually left in June, owing about €6k in back rent.

    Sold it ASAP after that.



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