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Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Tge discipline hearing during the week may say a lot. whether they think a ban is deserved or red card alone was warranted or if it was wrong.

    SA rugby mag so most pollsters i assume will be saffers and while its tight the majority think the ref was correct

    Ive seen a lot say to letter of law its correct but they would have done differentlty and fair enough but i think its very clearly foul play. i dont see mitigation and its red.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    "We" are part of world rugby.

    Head contact at pace is a red, no ifs and or buts!

    You see this every WC year with the sh teams. They are now on the back foot in terms of superiority and financial gains.

    They don't have as much control now and they don't like it. Without the haha they have nothing. They've lost sa already. Dosh speaks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,983 ✭✭✭Augme



    Their perspective will be to enforce uphold the current laws in place. Like Jaco Peyper. As I have said multiple times, I am not claiming it wasn't a red under the current laws.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    More importantly, there will be the Owen Doyle article in the IT, which will contain the ultimate ruling on the issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo




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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,983 ✭✭✭Augme



    Not sure of the question asked by SA mag but I also think the ref was correct given the current laws, but I don't think the laws should lead to the situation that was created yesterday.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,019 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Your first paragraph is a load of rubbish.

    Also what is actually being trialled in Super Rugby is a yellow card can be upgraded to a red by the TMO while the player is in the sin bin. In that case player doesn't return and the replacement comes on after 20 minutes. A straight red is still the same as it is in other comps. Off and no replacement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,500 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Steward had time to adjust but he did so in the wrong manner. He should have opened his arms and embraced Keegan running at him and soaked the hit. So it's a red for direct contact to the head. Now the tackle that saw red in Musgrave Park this evening was at an altogether different level of dangerous. So maybe Steward being subbed after 20 mins, but no such redemption for the blatant dangerous play today.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So... Anyway... Grand Slam is a cool aul thing yeah?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    How would you differentiate that in law though. Both are regarded in laws as dangerous play..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Have we reached consensus?

    Should it have been Red, Yellow, penalty, play-on?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,500 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The referee and team already decide on the degree of foul play. They also examine mitigating circumstances. This is just a differentiation within the red card area. Red card is for actions, as in direct head contact, tip tackle. So it could be two levels, High and Severe.

    I am aware that all law changes require precise language and can be difficult to get right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Thanks for the confirmation. That's all I needed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Rangy


    For a start if it’s an equal contest for the ball and neither player has the ball, a clash of heads or an accidental arm/shoulder/elbow to head should be classified “unintentional” and not be red.

    Any defending player who accidentally puts his shoulder to the head of the attacker can be determined by judging whether he pulls out or stops his momentum into the tackle. If this is the case, a direct shoulder to head should be classified “unintentional” and not be red.

    Finally, the onus should be on the players not to clash heads but intent and not outcome based decisions should be made. By definition the defending player is on the defensive. Intent can be determined by the posture, shape and intent he brings into the contact situation. If he or the attacker are dropping/slipping into contact this could be judged to be unintentional and not Red if there is contact to head.

    This doesn’t remove dangerous play from the game but to have a strict factual analysis or outcome based decision interpretation of the law is ruining the game.

    I know there is this outcry of “you heartless bastard how would like if it was you” about players with dementia but if you play the game you know the risks and have to take that responsibility on yourself. The liability isn’t and shouldn’t be on the governing bodies. hHow can you have a workplace health and safety liability when the sport is a contact sport?

    Players know the risks taking the field and can easily compensate for this by not tackling big if they’re lighter players. Like Xavier Garbajosa. That ruins the contest also but not on the same scale as the strict application of the law on head contact. It leaves the impetus on players to make the decision. In any case, players/coaches have to take their share of blame.

    It also might lessen participation by young players but you know the game you’re getting into. Do bull fighters complain when they get gorged or boxers complain when they’re knocked out? It’s a contact sport, you can’t avoid head hits in a game played at high speed with players at every contact situation going in head first!!! But to go down the road of litigating it out of the game is contrary to the nature of the game being by definition a contact sport.

    Perhaps criminalising coaches who coerce or bully their players into doing dangerous things on the field is the route. Leaving the liability on the governing body isn’t the answer and is done to gain money for incapacitated players. Criminal liability of coaches will lessen the impetus to get your players psyched up for games to do dangerous things on the field



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Cheers. I'm glad you're admitting the severity of the head contact. Fair play.

    A lesser person wouldn't admit it.



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭fitz


    With respect, YR, maybe you just don't notice it, but that's how it comes across. Me and the wife have really enjoyed watching the Super Rugby over breakfast past few seasons, and the willingness to chalk things down to a "rugby incident" is a definite trend, mix it in with the blokey banter and seemingly more concern about the spectacle than the potential for injury to players, and it's hard to listen to at times.

    And the player staying off but being allowed to be replaced after 20 minutes is just a weak punishment imo, and won't do enough to change the behaviors that cause those incidents.

    I do like the TMO upgrade option, though. Get the game moving again while a more in depth review takes place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,696 ✭✭✭Seadin


    We are after winning a GS, first in Dublin in history and won it in convincing fashion and all I see here is several pages debating a red card. We don't win too many Grand Slams in our rugby history, they are so hard to win and get right in any given year. Can we just enjoy the GS for 2023 while we can. I can remember watching rugby and being devastated in the 1990/2000s when I saw England France Scotland and Wales winning Grand slams and championships and we couldn't even win one until 2009. Now we are winning them more regularly. Enjoy it while it lasts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    That just leads to more problems and more issues as posted earlier will lead people to not want their kids to play rugby, We cant have a sport where if you play you know the rusks and tough. Would you be like that with your own kids? Many parents just wont and the sport loses out.

    We have to have a strict application on head contact because of the long term issues that can arrise if we dont.. look at the steve thompson and his case. Talking about bull fighters is nonsense. you cant avoid head contact but you can do everything possible to reduce it and to discourage people from hitting high even when its untentional.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭squidgainz


    I think debate will happen on a message board. Otherwise it's just posts saying , we won the grand slam , unreal! Woohoo. I'm sure everyone's feeling that anyways.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,983 ✭✭✭Augme



    @Rangy pretty much nailed it. If World rugby are s9 concerned about player safety they should implement the waist high tackle rule immediately and at all levels of the game and attackers and defenders should both be punished when making head contact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭squidgainz




  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Rangy


    Ok so using your outcome based application of the law what if every player in rugby plays full careers and tackles around the waist/knees/ankles but still get dementia. A knee to the head is just as if not more damaging than head to head contact. As is a hip to head. My point is that head impacts are unavoidable. In that case do we stop tackling in the game?



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,644 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I guess you didn't see how Gary ringrose was knocked out then



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    I see what you're saying. Whiplash and contact is also a major factor. We need to mitigate factors.

    Look at our first grandslam. Big men might have been only 95kgs. Backs would have been about 75kgs.

    Huge difference now. No way I could play now. I'd give it a go, but I'd be in hospital!

    We have to look to the future of the game and as much physical and neurogical safety as possible.

    Edit: this 20 minute yellow card is a backward step.



  • Registered Users Posts: 56,135 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Spot on. Sums up exactly what some of us are like with Ireland and rugby. Years in the wilderness and struggling to win triple crowns, and not a hope a winning championships, never mind slams.

    We then start achieving and winning and we take the good out of it by either slagging the “weak” opposition or making out that decisions going our way made all difference.

    some on here making out the GS is eff all, and only a WC win is worth celebrating.

    a country of 6 million, with rugby as our 4th or so most played sport, and we have this attitude from some that we’re not achieving unless we’re hammering the likes of England (50 million and dozens and dozens more rugby clubs than us) and winning world cups..

    reading posts like we played shite because of some errors..mad stuff



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Rangy


    Ok so where does the physical safety aspect stop. If you’re saying “as much as possible” you must also include all tackling in your reasoning because a knee to head is just as, if not more dangerous than head to head contact. Are you saying cut out all tackling? If you’re not you’re talking through your hoop on making the game as safe as possible



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