Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377349#Comment_120377349

Nothing to do with being childish. It was a red under the rules of the game.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377358#Comment_120377358

Me saying that different people will have different opinions - as proven by this thread , pundits , players , ex players and you just replying saying "Red" is childish. Either way I don't give a shite , over the moon with the grand slam , can't wait for the world cup , will hopefully get to a game.

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377370#Comment_120377370

That's a lot of nonsense sentences with irregular punctuation.

I also am delighted with the grand slam and can't wait for the WC.

It's still a red. Maybe I'm just not as tough as you.

Lost Ormond · 19-03-2023 9:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377352#Comment_120377352

Who is this they? Its a lead from down under especially for a 20 minute red so they can try have things more like rugby league and i dont see why we should be reducing the impact of clear and obvious dangerous play because that can have a big knock on effect on the amateur game and kids playing and thinking that is acceptable play when it isnt.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 9:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377401#Comment_120377401

Not a red. Never. Yeah I'd imagine I'm just a tougher bloke.

standardg60 · 19-03-2023 9:49pm

Looking forward to discussion on the yellow given to the French U20's hooker at HT

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377447#Comment_120377447

Very well so.

fitz · 19-03-2023 9:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377424#Comment_120377424

If you watch Super rugby at all, you'll hear there's a lot of "game's gone soft" in the culture there. Their commentators and pundits are generally quite knowledgeable, there's a very "tough bloke" tone to how the game is viewed and less concern with safety...they're forever lamenting the impact of the laws on the game, rather than lamenting that players can't seem to grasp that they have a duty to not do dangerous sh*t.

World Rugby have a responsibility to look at it in a broader sense, rather than pander to people with an out of date view on these things.

Bit naive to think they wouldn't trial something for political reasons also - I don't think WR have any intention of moving ahead with the 20 minute red (not should they), but now they can say they tried it.

Augme · 19-03-2023 10:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377424#Comment_120377424

They is World Rugby. Who this "we"? Apart from Irish fans on boards I haven't seen anyone else who thinks a red card is the only right and justified outcome from yesterday's incident tbh.

Former Former Former · 19-03-2023 10:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377520#Comment_120377520

Well, there was Jaco Peyper. There will be a disciplinary hearing on Wednesday, they may have a perspective on it...

Lost Ormond · 19-03-2023 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377520#Comment_120377520

Tge discipline hearing during the week may say a lot. whether they think a ban is deserved or red card alone was warranted or if it was wrong.

SA rugby mag so most pollsters i assume will be saffers and while its tight the majority think the ref was correct

Ive seen a lot say to letter of law its correct but they would have done differentlty and fair enough but i think its very clearly foul play. i dont see mitigation and its red.

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377520#Comment_120377520

"We" are part of world rugby.

Head contact at pace is a red, no ifs and or buts!

You see this every WC year with the sh teams. They are now on the back foot in terms of superiority and financial gains.

They don't have as much control now and they don't like it. Without the haha they have nothing. They've lost sa already. Dosh speaks.

Augme · 19-03-2023 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377540#Comment_120377540

Their perspective will be to enforce uphold the current laws in place. Like Jaco Peyper. As I have said multiple times, I am not claiming it wasn't a red under the current laws.

Neil3030 · 19-03-2023 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377540#Comment_120377540

More importantly, there will be the Owen Doyle article in the IT, which will contain the ultimate ruling on the issue.

prawnsambo · 19-03-2023 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377202#Comment_120377202

Was this supposed to be a serious response?

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377578#Comment_120377578

Yep.

Augme · 19-03-2023 10:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377556#Comment_120377556

Not sure of the question asked by SA mag but I also think the ref was correct given the current laws, but I don't think the laws should lead to the situation that was created yesterday.

Lost Ormond · 19-03-2023 10:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377585#Comment_120377585

How should laws be written then?

Yeah_Right · 19-03-2023 10:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377479#Comment_120377479

Your first paragraph is a load of rubbish.

Also what is actually being trialled in Super Rugby is a yellow card can be upgraded to a red by the TMO while the player is in the sin bin. In that case player doesn't return and the replacement comes on after 20 minutes. A straight red is still the same as it is in other comps. Off and no replacement.

Water John · 19-03-2023 10:45pm

Steward had time to adjust but he did so in the wrong manner. He should have opened his arms and embraced Keegan running at him and soaked the hit. So it's a red for direct contact to the head. Now the tackle that saw red in Musgrave Park this evening was at an altogether different level of dangerous. So maybe Steward being subbed after 20 mins, but no such redemption for the blatant dangerous play today.

19-03-2023 10:47pm

So... Anyway... Grand Slam is a cool aul thing yeah?

Lost Ormond · 19-03-2023 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377649#Comment_120377649

How would you differentiate that in law though. Both are regarded in laws as dangerous play..

cuttingtimber22 · 19-03-2023 10:57pm

Have we reached consensus?

Should it have been Red, Yellow, penalty, play-on?

Water John · 19-03-2023 10:57pm

The referee and team already decide on the degree of foul play. They also examine mitigating circumstances. This is just a differentiation within the red card area. Red card is for actions, as in direct head contact, tip tackle. So it could be two levels, High and Severe.

I am aware that all law changes require precise language and can be difficult to get right.

prawnsambo · 19-03-2023 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377581#Comment_120377581

Thanks for the confirmation. That's all I needed.

Rangy · 19-03-2023 11:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377606#Comment_120377606

For a start if it’s an equal contest for the ball and neither player has the ball, a clash of heads or an accidental arm/shoulder/elbow to head should be classified “unintentional” and not be red.

Any defending player who accidentally puts his shoulder to the head of the attacker can be determined by judging whether he pulls out or stops his momentum into the tackle. If this is the case, a direct shoulder to head should be classified “unintentional” and not be red.

Finally, the onus should be on the players not to clash heads but intent and not outcome based decisions should be made. By definition the defending player is on the defensive. Intent can be determined by the posture, shape and intent he brings into the contact situation. If he or the attacker are dropping/slipping into contact this could be judged to be unintentional and not Red if there is contact to head.

This doesn’t remove dangerous play from the game but to have a strict factual analysis or outcome based decision interpretation of the law is ruining the game.

I know there is this outcry of “you heartless bastard how would like if it was you” about players with dementia but if you play the game you know the risks and have to take that responsibility on yourself. The liability isn’t and shouldn’t be on the governing bodies. hHow can you have a workplace health and safety liability when the sport is a contact sport?

Players know the risks taking the field and can easily compensate for this by not tackling big if they’re lighter players. Like Xavier Garbajosa. That ruins the contest also but not on the same scale as the strict application of the law on head contact. It leaves the impetus on players to make the decision. In any case, players/coaches have to take their share of blame.

It also might lessen participation by young players but you know the game you’re getting into. Do bull fighters complain when they get gorged or boxers complain when they’re knocked out? It’s a contact sport, you can’t avoid head hits in a game played at high speed with players at every contact situation going in head first!!! But to go down the road of litigating it out of the game is contrary to the nature of the game being by definition a contact sport.

Perhaps criminalising coaches who coerce or bully their players into doing dangerous things on the field is the route. Leaving the liability on the governing body isn’t the answer and is done to gain money for incapacitated players. Criminal liability of coaches will lessen the impetus to get your players psyched up for games to do dangerous things on the field

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 11:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377701#Comment_120377701

Cheers. I'm glad you're admitting the severity of the head contact. Fair play.

A lesser person wouldn't admit it.

fitz · 19-03-2023 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377641#Comment_120377641

With respect, YR, maybe you just don't notice it, but that's how it comes across. Me and the wife have really enjoyed watching the Super Rugby over breakfast past few seasons, and the willingness to chalk things down to a "rugby incident" is a definite trend, mix it in with the blokey banter and seemingly more concern about the spectacle than the potential for injury to players, and it's hard to listen to at times.

And the player staying off but being allowed to be replaced after 20 minutes is just a weak punishment imo, and won't do enough to change the behaviors that cause those incidents.

I do like the TMO upgrade option, though. Get the game moving again while a more in depth review takes place.

Seadin · 19-03-2023 11:18pm

We are after winning a GS, first in Dublin in history and won it in convincing fashion and all I see here is several pages debating a red card. We don't win too many Grand Slams in our rugby history, they are so hard to win and get right in any given year. Can we just enjoy the GS for 2023 while we can. I can remember watching rugby and being devastated in the 1990/2000s when I saw England France Scotland and Wales winning Grand slams and championships and we couldn't even win one until 2009. Now we are winning them more regularly. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Lost Ormond · 19-03-2023 11:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377713#Comment_120377713

That just leads to more problems and more issues as posted earlier will lead people to not want their kids to play rugby, We cant have a sport where if you play you know the rusks and tough. Would you be like that with your own kids? Many parents just wont and the sport loses out.

We have to have a strict application on head contact because of the long term issues that can arrise if we dont.. look at the steve thompson and his case. Talking about bull fighters is nonsense. you cant avoid head contact but you can do everything possible to reduce it and to discourage people from hitting high even when its untentional.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 11:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377751#Comment_120377751

I think debate will happen on a message board. Otherwise it's just posts saying , we won the grand slam , unreal! Woohoo. I'm sure everyone's feeling that anyways.

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377751#Comment_120377751

Stop talking sense!

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377764#Comment_120377764

Wahoo!

Augme · 19-03-2023 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377606#Comment_120377606

@Rangy pretty much nailed it. If World rugby are s9 concerned about player safety they should implement the waist high tackle rule immediately and at all levels of the game and attackers and defenders should both be punished when making head contact.

squidgainz · 19-03-2023 11:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377774#Comment_120377774

Yeeeeehawww!

Rangy · 19-03-2023 11:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377756#Comment_120377756

Ok so using your outcome based application of the law what if every player in rugby plays full careers and tackles around the waist/knees/ankles but still get dementia. A knee to the head is just as if not more damaging than head to head contact. As is a hip to head. My point is that head impacts are unavoidable. In that case do we stop tackling in the game?

sydthebeat · 19-03-2023 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377797#Comment_120377797

I guess you didn't see how Gary ringrose was knocked out then

gameoverdude · 19-03-2023 11:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377816#Comment_120377816

I see what you're saying. Whiplash and contact is also a major factor. We need to mitigate factors.

Look at our first grandslam. Big men might have been only 95kgs. Backs would have been about 75kgs.

Huge difference now. No way I could play now. I'd give it a go, but I'd be in hospital!

We have to look to the future of the game and as much physical and neurogical safety as possible.

Edit: this 20 minute yellow card is a backward step.

walshb · 20-03-2023 12:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377751#Comment_120377751

Spot on. Sums up exactly what some of us are like with Ireland and rugby. Years in the wilderness and struggling to win triple crowns, and not a hope a winning championships, never mind slams.

We then start achieving and winning and we take the good out of it by either slagging the “weak” opposition or making out that decisions going our way made all difference.

some on here making out the GS is eff all, and only a WC win is worth celebrating.

a country of 6 million, with rugby as our 4th or so most played sport, and we have this attitude from some that we’re not achieving unless we’re hammering the likes of England (50 million and dozens and dozens more rugby clubs than us) and winning world cups..

reading posts like we played shite because of some errors..mad stuff

Rangy · 20-03-2023 12:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377835#Comment_120377835

Ok so where does the physical safety aspect stop. If you’re saying “as much as possible” you must also include all tackling in your reasoning because a knee to head is just as, if not more dangerous than head to head contact. Are you saying cut out all tackling? If you’re not you’re talking through your hoop on making the game as safe as possible

gameoverdude · 20-03-2023 12:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377889#Comment_120377889

No I'm not at all. And you know this!

Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

A fair tackle is not a strong arm to the head. You know this!

Circles here. A knee to the head is obviously dangerous. I'm pretty sure I played rugby 'in the good old days "and you didn't.

Ardillaun · 20-03-2023 12:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377026#Comment_120377026

Such a strange situation for both of them, especially the father. Talk about mixed emotions.

bingobango12 · 20-03-2023 1:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377684#Comment_120377684

Don’t think a consensus will be found on this. Watched the match in a pub with friends. Interestingly most who play/had played rugby said yellow at best, while the ones who had never played said it should be red.

Not sure what Stewart it meant to do to be honest, penalty, maybe a yellow in my opinion.

jacothelad · 20-03-2023 8:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377984#Comment_120377984

Law 9 - Foul Play:

DANGEROUS PLAY

11. Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including

leading with the elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackler.

12. A player must not physically or verbally abuse anyone. Physical abuse includes,

but is not limited to, biting, punching, contact with the eye or eye area, striking

with any part of the arm, shoulder, head or knee(s), stamping, trampling,

tripping or kicking.

13. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous

tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an

opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the

line of the shoulders.

14. A player must not tackle an opponent who is not in possession of the ball.

15. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player who is not in possession of the ball

must not hold, push, charge or obstruct an opponent not in possession of the

ball.

16. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without

attempting to grasp that player.

17. A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet

are off the ground.

18. A player must not lift an opponent off the ground and drop or drive that player

so that their head and/or upper body make contact with the ground.

AbusesToilets · 20-03-2023 8:52am

On a separate note, I thought Peyper was wrong when he overturned the penalty call after Sexton's tap and go. He said Farrell was retreating, but he actually ran parallel with Sexton, effectively cutting down space and sheparding him into Itoje.

Geeta · 20-03-2023 9:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377919#Comment_120377919

What’s the difference with a knee to the head and shoulder to the head?

OldRio · 20-03-2023 9:13am

Jaco posted the laws above. Perhaps read them.

ujjjjjjjjj · 20-03-2023 9:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376988#Comment_120376988

Think you may well be right, Wilkinson who is a class analyst said exactly this on the ITV UK panel post match.

lawrencesummers · 20-03-2023 9:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378230#Comment_120378230

One is a knee and one is a shoulder.

aloooof · 20-03-2023 10:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374347#Comment_120374347

Correction to this. We've won 19 of the last 21.

One of those losses was in Eden Park, where NZ haven't lost a game in the professional era. The other was a 1 score game in the Stade de France to the ranked 2nd side in the world.

I mentioned this elsewhere too, but we've had 2 yellow cards in those 21 games. Our opponents have had 16 yellows and 7 reds. We've been unbelievably good at keeping 15 players on the pitch.

Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

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