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Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    No I'm not at all. And you know this!

    Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

    A fair tackle is not a strong arm to the head. You know this!

    Circles here. A knee to the head is obviously dangerous. I'm pretty sure I played rugby 'in the good old days "and you didn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Such a strange situation for both of them, especially the father. Talk about mixed emotions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭bingobango12


    Don’t think a consensus will be found on this. Watched the match in a pub with friends. Interestingly most who play/had played rugby said yellow at best, while the ones who had never played said it should be red.

    Not sure what Stewart it meant to do to be honest, penalty, maybe a yellow in my opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    Law 9 - Foul Play:

    DANGEROUS PLAY

    11. Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including

    leading with the elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackler.

    12. A player must not physically or verbally abuse anyone. Physical abuse includes,

    but is not limited to, biting, punching, contact with the eye or eye area, striking

    with any part of the arm, shoulder, head or knee(s), stamping, trampling,

    tripping or kicking.

    13. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous

    tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an

    opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the

    line of the shoulders.

    14. A player must not tackle an opponent who is not in possession of the ball.

    15. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player who is not in possession of the ball

    must not hold, push, charge or obstruct an opponent not in possession of the

    ball.

    16. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without

    attempting to grasp that player.

    17. A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet

    are off the ground.

    18. A player must not lift an opponent off the ground and drop or drive that player

    so that their head and/or upper body make contact with the ground.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,490 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    On a separate note, I thought Peyper was wrong when he overturned the penalty call after Sexton's tap and go. He said Farrell was retreating, but he actually ran parallel with Sexton, effectively cutting down space and sheparding him into Itoje.

    Post edited by AbusesToilets on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13 Geeta


    What’s the difference with a knee to the head and shoulder to the head?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,080 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Jaco posted the laws above. Perhaps read them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    Think you may well be right, Wilkinson who is a class analyst said exactly this on the ITV UK panel post match.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Correction to this. We've won 19 of the last 21.

    One of those losses was in Eden Park, where NZ haven't lost a game in the professional era. The other was a 1 score game in the Stade de France to the ranked 2nd side in the world.

    I mentioned this elsewhere too, but we've had 2 yellow cards in those 21 games. Our opponents have had 16 yellows and 7 reds. We've been unbelievably good at keeping 15 players on the pitch.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭Cateym




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Registered Users Posts: 69,100 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What a great weekend. Two Grand Slams!

    As the dust settles I don't think we could have had a better outcome for the senior team.

    A nervous but ultimately convincing win with work to do now over the summer.

    Worst outcome for me would have been a French like trouncing of England.

    It would not have done us any favours long term satisfying as it might have been.

    Enjoy the celebrations lads, well deserved and get back to work soon!



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,500 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Aloof, your card analysis shows that the game, with the present rules can be played safely by the No 1 team in the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Rangy



    In the avoidance of brain injury what difference does it make if the hit is from the shoulder or knee? You say they are different body parts without addressing the logic that if you legislate one out of the game you must legislate the other out also. But if you legislate knee to head contact out of the game you would have to remove tackling from the game. Don’t play the innocent fool when you know exactly where the logic leads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Rangy




  • Registered Users Posts: 21,500 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Accidental dangerous hits in tackling or rucking do happen. But they are rare enough. By that I mean head contact with a hip or knee. The desire is to make the game of rugby as safe as possible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Rangy


    The desire is to make the game of rugby as safe as possible.

    if that is your reasoning then tackling should also be removed from the game per your logic?



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭squidgainz


    I think in fairness removing tackling removes the game. Your argument is a straw man . The objective is to make the game as safe as possible while retaining as much characteristics of it as possible. So no tackling is dumb.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'd go one further and suggest it is a part of the reason they are the No 1 team in the world.

    Updated stats extrapolated from this article, but it may not be a surprise that France are the next best on the list having 3 yellows and 2 reds across their 21 games.

    As far as I can tell, all other teams have double-figures for cards.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,399 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Great win. Unbelievable achievement. The red was the correct call but unfortunate in the context of the game. Players will take time to learn what they can and cannot do in advance of particular scenarios. I hope Keenan is ok because he has been outstanding and brave.

    Fair play to England for turning up and they will not be a pushover in the WC.

    And well done to the U20s. Got a bit hairy in the end but they nailed it when they needed to.

    Never drinking again....

    Post edited by Cluedo Monopoly on

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Rangy


    You can’t remove head hits from the game full stop. People are hurtling into rucks head first all game. Accidental head hits will happen regardless of the law. The application of the law is ruining the game. I agree head to head contact should be penalised but intent should be more of a deciding factor. Majority of the time players don’t mean to head butt someone. It’s ruining the game.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭squidgainz


    Yeah it's very hard to ascertain intent though. Even the red ,many thought he knew exactly what he was doing , others didn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    but intent should be more of a deciding factor.

    You're asking a referee standing in the middle of a pitch, staring up at a big screen with 50,000 baying fans around him, to judge intent. It's not reasonable.

    Intent will be a consideration at the disciplinary hearing and Steward will get the lowest ban possible (two weeks) as a result.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They may not mean to headbutt someone, but they clearly do mean to go in high and that's what needs to change



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I do like the new trial they are running in the Southern Hemisphere at the moment ,where the player is given an instant yellow by the ref and then the TMO reviews it over the 10 minutes of the sin-bin and has the ability to upgrade to a red if they deem it necessary.

    It removes the crowd and the emotion out of the process and give the TMO loads of time to calmly review the footage to make the decision.

    Thinks it's a great idea - Not a fan of the 20 minute red card thing at all though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Now that is a good point which I hadn't looked into before. It makes sense (seems kinda obvious now! Duh!).



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭A2LUE42


    As someone who remembers the 'moral' victories mixed with the odd high point in the early eighties, the current situation Irish rugby is in would have seemed impossible back then. But, it was a strange game to watch on Saturday. Ireland was expected to win and they did. England played the only type of game they could to try and not be beaten and it was reasonably successful. Not pretty, but effective. I was glad to see it, as it shows that Ireland has adapted their game to deal with big physical sides who are bigger and heavier than they are, something that was beyond them until recently. The Red card, hmmm, as a former FB, I'd regard it as a cheap shot, that would have barely been penalised when I started playing, and could have been a yellow by the time I finished playing, but with the current rules, a red, based on the criteria. I don't think Stewart set out to take Keenans head off, but he did turn and protect himself at a cost to the other player. If he had tucked, turned and gone face-on, it could just as easily have been head to head contact, so not sure Keenan was coming out of it without a knock, no matter what happened. He was very exposed. I thought Doris could have been pulled off for a hia after he went head first into two English players, as he seemed to be worse for wear after it. The final worry is that Sheehan is still struggling as he seemed to be holding the arm again before he came off. Would be awful for him, if it keeps coming back.

    From now to the world cup, the best scenario is that they all recover and nobody else is injured and they give it their best shot. It's quite likely a couple of teams get knocked out due to cards or injuries in the games, just hope it isn't Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,486 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    20 minute red card is a pretty significant backward step. It's tantamount to saying that red cards are ruining the game and having 15 v 15 is more important than player welfare. Effectively they have conceded on the determination to address the issue of head shots in as meaningful a way as possible.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,582 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Agree completely - I couldn't care less about the "spectacle" or whatever , a red card is a red card and you play down a player for the rest of the game whether it happens in the 1st minute or the last.

    I think this new idea of being able to upgrade from yellow is a great innovation , once the ref is happy that the offence has at least reached yellow card level they just give the card and the game restarts.

    No more prolonged on-field reviews searching for "mitigation" or "degree of danger" etc. with the crowd baying for blood and the big screen showing repeated slo-mo replays.

    All the review is done quietly and away from view in the TMO room where they have 8 minutes to decide if the card is getting upgraded to Red.

    It probably means having two TMOs though, as you might need to have someone keeping an eye on "live" play whilst the other does the review work.



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