Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

23-03-2021 9:06am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

From the bit when you said.....

No issue with a player going to ground if he wishes :pac:

I meant I've no idea where my thought thath you couldn't jusy go to ground came from.

Water John · 23-03-2021 9:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

I meant I've no idea where my thought thath you couldn't jusy go to ground came from.

Still interesting as you're handling the ball on the ground, not having been tackled. Is ball placement only allowed in a tackle?

padjocollins · 23-03-2021 9:38am

i've vague memories of it. I think he might have had an issue with setting up a ruck if that's what we did, as there was no tackle maybe illegal offside. if one of my players took the ball and ran with it after i placed it , we might have gotten away with it and the ref might have just given me a withering look (deserved).

Quin_Dub · 23-03-2021 11:37am

padjocollins wrote: »

i've vague memories of it. I think he might have had an issue with setting up a ruck if that's what we did, as there was no tackle maybe illegal offside. if one of my players took the ball and ran with it after i placed it , we might have gotten away with it and the ref might have just given me a withering look (deserved).

Yeah.. You can't do a "Training session" style thing where the ball carrier drops to ground and you bridge on to them creating a ruck without any contact from the opposition , that's effectively sealing off and preventing fair contest.

If you fall on the ground untouched as it were , the opposition have to have fair access to be able to play the ball.

padjocollins · 23-03-2021 11:52am

i think he might have mentioned bridgeing but i couldn't swear it wasn't truck and trailer so i didn't mention anything earlier. I knew i was bending the rules either way. I've looked up truck and trailer this morning . knew it before but refreshed . so many rules in rugby but you get them after a while

23-03-2021 12:11pm

padjocollins wrote: »

i've vague memories of it. I think he might have had an issue with setting up a ruck if that's what we did, as there was no tackle maybe illegal offside. if one of my players took the ball and ran with it after i placed it , we might have gotten away with it and the ref might have just given me a withering look (deserved).

It's a while since I refereed, but there is a general prohibition on doing anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship (Law 9.27):

"A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship" It would be within the ref's discretion to apply that (sanction penalty kick).

In any event, Law 13 states:

"Principle: The game is played only by players who are on their feet.

1. Players who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball must immediately (a) get up with the ball, or (b) play (but not kick) the ball, or (c) release the ball.

2. Once the ball is played or released, players on the ground must immediately either move away from the ball or get up.

3. A player on the ground without the ball is out of the game and must (a) allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the ball, (b) not play the ball, (c) not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent."

Sanction is PK for all contraventions. Law 14 deals with Tackle separately.

So there is nothing specifically to prevent a player going to ground voluntarily. If they do so, pending actions by another player there is nothing to create an offside line and no tackle therefore no gate. If the player complied with Law 13 but in the meantime a ruck formed over the ball (Law 15 - a ruck is formed when at least one player from each teom are in contact on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground) this would generate an offside line governed by Law 15 etc.

However, I would referee a player who goes to ground voluntarily very strictly, as it is not positive play. So I would require them to get up, play it or release the ball and move away, quite literally, immediately. I would be very harsh if there was any suspicion of causing an obstruction to other players as a result of their actions.

If you had other players come in over the player who goes to ground, making one side of a ruck over the ball as you describe then that's highly likely to cause an obstruction independently of what the player who went to ground does. Penalty Kick, subject to any advantage if an opposing player does manage to secure the ball.

If they do this but the ball is played away quickly ("immediately") and no obstruction takes place, then play on.

padjocollins · 23-03-2021 1:14pm

good explanation , sensible . i've never 'seen' it done before except by myself . I'd just go for poor sportsmanship or maybe ignore it if the ball is picked up by either side immediately. Another thing I got caught out for in training is not making sure the tackler goes to ground with me . Sneaky/Crafty bugger tackles me but lets me go ground and manages to stay on his feet. if he's on his side of the pitch he can immediately jackal me for the ball. feels like getting done over , as it is. Thats what training is for i suppose.

23-03-2021 1:48pm

padjocollins wrote: »

Another thing I got caught out for in training is not making sure the tackler goes to ground with me . Sneaky/Crafty bugger tackles me but lets me go ground and manages to stay on his feet. if he's on his side of the pitch he can immediately jackal me for the ball. feels like getting done over , as it is. Thats what training is for i suppose.

Sure is.

If you have support players close by they should deal with players trying to take the ball from you. If not you have to attempt to take and manage the contact on the best terms possible for your team. You could fight to keep your feet until they are closer, and it will often be advantageous to force tacklers to commit to going to ground with you so that he must release and regain his feet before playing for the ball, rather than letting them kind of brush you off down to the ground, retaining their feet themselves.

You can't pull him off his feet as he tries to disengage though. That would be a penalty if spotted.

sydthebeat · 23-03-2021 3:31pm

padjocollins wrote: »

.... Another thing I got caught out for in training is not making sure the tackler goes to ground with me . Sneaky/Crafty bugger tackles me but lets me go ground and manages to stay on his feet. if he's on his side of the pitch he can immediately jackal me for the ball. feels like getting done over , as it is. Thats what training is for i suppose.

if you continue to fight through the tackle you are more likely to get the tackler to end up in a position where they are either on your side of the ball, or in a position where they need to readjust to immediately jackal.

its difficult to do so if your a smaller guy as you risk being held up for a maul turn over, or risk being pushed back and lose the gainline... but those are things you can work on with body work. To be honest some wrestling or even judo training is very useful here to use your and your tacklers weight to manipulate the contact

flazio · 26-03-2021 9:54pm

Couple of sin bin questions.
1. Does a player have to wait for a break in play when the 10 minutes are up or can they run straight on?

2. A player is yellow carded on the 71st minute, play is still going a minute into the red. Can the carded player rejoin?

locum-motion · 26-03-2021 10:45pm

He can only come back on when there’s a break in play, and only with the permission of the ref. In top level matches, the 4th official will liaise with the ref to let him know that the time’s up.

Once the clock goes red (80:00), play continues until the ball goes dead; effectively til it goes into touch or there’s a scrum infringement. Once that happens, it’s game over.
However, if someone commits a penalty infringement, then the game isn’t over; the infringement has to be penalised. So if the sin bin clock has elapsed, then that’s a break in which the guy can return to play. If the non-infringing team opts to kick for touch, then they get to have their line out, so again, the game isn’t over.

In the 6 Nations a few years ago, there was a match between (I think) France and Wales that went on til about 101 minutes. There was at least 1 guy sin binned after the 80 minutes, but he got back on before the match ended.

Lost Ormond · 26-03-2021 11:00pm

flazio wrote: »

Couple of sin bin questions.
1. Does a player have to wait for a break in play when the 10 minutes are up or can they run straight on?

2. A player is yellow carded on the 71st minute, play is still going a minute into the red. Can the carded player rejoin?

1. They may only return with the permission of the referee.

2. Yes they can return if 10 minutes of the sin bin has been completed and a suitable break in play that does not end the game has taken place which can only be the awarding of a penalty as if there is reason for a scrum/lineout etc then the game is over.

blackwhite · 01-04-2021 5:39pm

padjocollins wrote: »

Another thing I got caught out for in training is not making sure the tackler goes to ground with me . Sneaky/Crafty bugger tackles me but lets me go ground and manages to stay on his feet. if he's on his side of the pitch he can immediately jackal me for the ball. feels like getting done over , as it is.

Just a thought on this - if the tackler doesn't go to ground with you, then is it not likely to be a "not held" situation where the ball carrier can try and regain their feet without releasing the ball?

theintern · 07-04-2021 12:29pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Just a thought on this - if the tackler doesn't go to ground with you, then is it not likely to be a "not held" situation where the ball carrier can try and regain their feet without releasing the ball?

If the tackle isn't completed, and he doesn't go to ground with you, then yep, just jump up and keep going.

Quin_Dub · 07-04-2021 12:40pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Just a thought on this - if the tackler doesn't go to ground with you, then is it not likely to be a "not held" situation where the ball carrier can try and regain their feet without releasing the ball?

theintern wrote: »

If the tackle isn't completed, and he doesn't go to ground with you, then yep, just jump up and keep going.

Not exactly - The "completion of the tackle" has more to do with the status of the ball carrier than the Tackler

The law says the following

For a tackle to occur, the ball-carrier is held and brought to ground by one or more opponents.
Being brought to ground means that the ball-carrier is lying, sitting or has at least one knee on the ground or on another player who is on the ground.

Being held means that a tackler must continue holding the ball-carrier until the ball-carrier is on the ground

.

So the tackler can remain on their feet and still complete the tackle requiring the ball carrier to release the ball , equally the tackler has to remove their hands before trying to play the ball though.

Sattwa06 · 07-04-2021 2:45pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Not exactly - The "completion of the tackle" has more to do with the status of the ball carrier than the Tackler

The law says the following

So the tackler can remain on their feet and still complete the tackle requiring the ball carrier to release the ball , equally the tackler has to remove their hands before trying to play the ball though.

~~~

To be pedantic, if he doesn't go to ground with the tackled player, then technically he isn't a 'tackler' as defined in Law 14, he is considered as an 'other player' in the tackle area.

In saying that his obligations are much the same as a tackler, (release the ball carrier/ play the ball on your feet / from your own side/ etc).

theintern · 08-04-2021 3:19pm

Good points above, I was assuming the 'tackler' had released the player, not that he just hadn't gone to ground.

BK5 · 12-04-2022 11:53am

Say an attacking team kicks a cross field ball and you have an attacking winger and a defending winger going for it. The ball drops behind the try line and in trying to catch it the ball bounces off the attacking players hands and goes forward, while still in the air the attacker catches and grounds the ball. Is this a try or a knock on?

kuang1 · 12-04-2022 12:04pm

Try so long as he/she regathers the ball before it touches the ground after his/her initial touch.

Quin_Dub · 12-04-2022 12:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118915781#Comment_118915781

The ground or anything else - If the ball touched the defender in the air that would also count as a knock-on.

A2LUE42 · 09-07-2022 11:26am

Question on today's game. When Sexton tried to kick the penalty to touch, the NZ player jumped from an in-touch position to play the ball in the air and then land in the field of play. I always thought this was considered out of touch and to do this correctly you had to come from an in-field position and not be touching the ball when you land in-touch.

09-07-2022 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119313116#Comment_119313116

No, the rule states that a player can jump "from within or without" the playing area and catch the ball and prevent the ball from being in touch, even if it looks like it's broken the plane of the touchline.

It was a change to the rules in or around 2018 I think.

25-09-2022 10:03am

moved

06-11-2022 3:46pm

Can anyone tell me if the laws around hitting a retreating 'accidentally offside' player have changed?

So for example, there is a ruck formed and the 9 from Team A is at the back of the ruck waiting to take the ball out.

A player from Team B is on the wrong side of the ball - not in the ruck but retreating from a previous phase.

You would occasionally see a 9 intentionally hit the player for the penalty (intentionally / cynically), but I can't really remember it happening much anymore even to the degree where I've seen 9's delay release to ensure they didn't hit the retreating player.

I remember one or two instances where a ref wasn't happy with what the 9 had done but applying the rules. But it seems to have drifted out of the game as an act of 'dark arts' if you want to call it that.

Have the laws changed?

Losty Dublin · 06-11-2022 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841366#Comment_119841366

Nothing specific in Law to penalise same. That said, if a dummy half made a habit of it then a referee could find something under Law 9 to remedy ungentlemanly behaviour.

07-11-2022 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841366#Comment_119841366

As a former scrum half, it always really frustrated me when referees penalised scrum halves for what they believe are 9's deliberately passing into an offside player.

If you're offside, you should be down on the ground, not impeding play. If you're standing up and retreating back to your own side, and you run in the scrum half's passing lane to either side of the ruck, you should be penalised in my opinion. Otherwise, you're cutting off one side of the field to the 9 and taking an option.

When a 9 throws it into a player who is blatantly in an offside position he is essentially saying "I can't pass this ball in this direction because this player is standing in my passing lane". It doesn't matter if the 9 wouldn't have intended to go that way ordinarily, you're entitled to have both sides of the field open to you.

07-11-2022 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845893#Comment_119845893

I didn't realise it *was* penalised, I thought the penalty was awarded against the retreating player.

I just remember from time to time a 9 would milk a penalty by passing into an offside retreating player a bit cynically, and you don't see it anymore but turns out I had the law backwards.

07-11-2022 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846723#Comment_119846723

It's one of those issues where the ref will use his discretion and decide it case by case, and you do see scenarios where if the ref thinks the scrum half is trying to buy a penalty then he won't give it him, and it usually results in a stalled attack.

Losty Dublin · 12-11-2022 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846723#Comment_119846723

Occasionally Stringer used to do that solely to ~~kill~~ not gain an advantage and to take the penalty kick. Useful to do late in a game when the clock is the 16th man against your team.

19-11-2022 8:53pm

Lol.

hold my beer · 04-12-2022 7:21pm

I'm sure I've seen JGP throw the ball at an offside player on purpose a few times the last while. And he got the peno. Or maybe it was Luke

blackwhite · 04-12-2022 11:21pm

I think it depends on the situation.

If the offside player runs across the 10 channel then if the SH throws the ball at him it’s still a case of offside player obstructing the pass and a pen should be awarded, If the SH was forced to delay his pass to let the offside player get out of the way then it’s giving the defence additional time to get set.

If the offside player isn’t along a genuine passing lane then the SH throwing the ball at him isn’t a genuine passing attempt and shouldn’t be rewarded with a penalty

Quin_Dub · 05-12-2022 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119957609#Comment_119957609

Agreed , similar to where they pull a player over a ruck looking for a penalty and the referee won't give it (or at least shouldn't).

Ardillaun · 19-03-2023 6:42pm

Has anyone subjected games to VAR-style technology retrospectively to see how many offsides are missed?

blackwhite · 20-03-2023 10:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376903#Comment_120376903

With the all the law changes focused on encouraging attacking rugby over the past few seasons, it's quite odd that there hasn't been a push for stronger refereeing of the offside line. It's a quick fix, without any law changes, that would directly make it more attractive for teams to play attacking rugby

Ardillaun · 20-03-2023 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378569#Comment_120378569

I think it would slow the game at first until players got used to it but they’d learn pretty fast. Humans just aren’t able to see the small infractions. At the very least, somebody with the know how should be reviewing games and figuring out how bad the problem is.

Lost Ormond · 20-03-2023 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120376903#Comment_120376903

Theres probably loads of offsides but how many would be material? Its pointless anyway. You could review a lot of tackle/rucks and pull up something else each time you watch as well.

Water John · 20-03-2023 6:36pm

Yes, where it comes into life is when one team is getting close to the try line in multiple phases. Almost always the defending eventually go offside.

Each rugby game is dynamic and contains a number of actors. The chief three are, the referee and the two captains. It's through that the interpretation of the laws is implemented as the referee sees appropriate.

blackwhite · 20-03-2023 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380515#Comment_120380515

It depends.

England in their best years under Eddie Jones seemed to live offside. Their defensive set was based off being up in teams faces as fast as possible and you nearly always had their 12&13 starting well ahead of the back foot. It was fundamental to how they would try to shut down teams who tried to beat the English bulk with a faster back line

Properly refereeing the offside for teams such as that would have a massive impact on the game

BoardsMember · 20-03-2023 11:14pm

What is the law related to penalties taken quickly and the defender not being back 10?

There seemed to be some technical assessment of Jonny getting over the line where I think it was Farrell was deemed not offside but seemed like maybe he was.

And then someone in the match thread suggested his line of running shepherded Jonny into a tackler.

blackwhite · 20-03-2023 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120381643#Comment_120381643

One a player who started from an onside position has moved forward, anyone they pass is brought onside by that player.

The logic being if they had started from an onside position they’d be no worse than they currently are once the onside player reaches them

Quin_Dub · 21-03-2023 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120381682#Comment_120381682

There's also the element that the player in front needs to be seen to move backwards.

You can't just stand there and wait to be put onside.

In the case on Saturday the ref decided that Farrell was back-pedaling and Itoje moved forward from behind the goal line and had moved ahead of Farrell before either of them made contact with Sexton putting them both onside.

If Farrell hadn't moved it would have been a penalty.

Ardillaun · 21-03-2023 9:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380515#Comment_120380515

Well, what is material: 1mm, 10mm, 1000mm? Surely, some degree of offside matters or why have laws about it? Take your pick and we’ll make that the standard. At the moment, in my very inexpert opinion, there is insufficent consistency in enforcement.

Lost Ormond · 21-03-2023 10:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385578#Comment_120385578

A ruck 5m from touch and the winger of defence is a step offside and is on the far 5m line is not material. Not every offside matters. you warn player if you really need to but you dont penalise it. that isnt being inconsistent. its managing the game. you cant and wont penalise every infringement. you penalise what is material to play

like at a ruck a defending player goes off their feet but the ball is at back foot and scrum half can get ball away do you penalize. not always. you play on and warn player..

It depends on situation whether its material. you cant set a standard because it wont be met because its impossible to meet it

blackwhite · 22-03-2023 9:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385800#Comment_120385800

That's very different to the consistent tactic that plenty of teams employ of having a hard rush defence in the centre channels and usually starting from centre line of the ruck or even oppositions back foot, instead of starting from their own back foot line.

Ardillaun · 23-03-2023 3:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385800#Comment_120385800

What about defenders moving offside as the ball comes out of a ruck in front of them? Their position certainly matters. Do you think all such offenders are caught at the moment?

BoardsMember · 23-03-2023 7:37am

TMO for the last play in the Scotland v Italy game should be shot. Fagerson miles offside stopped the try, caused the knock on.

Ardillaun · 24-03-2023 2:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120390367#Comment_120390367

Is there a pic of it?

Clontarf_Jazz · 16-01-2024 3:46pm

Question : Re Frawley's monster penalty versus LAR. Say in theory Leinster are given that peno & the match clock is < 90 seconds remaining. They indicate a kick @ goal. The kicker runs down the clock to the point it is now in the red & instead of going for goal he kicks the ball into touch. What is the sanction(if any against the kicker). Can he claim he sliced it. Does the kicker have to be seen to make a genuine attempt at kicking the goal. Is there a rule in the book about such an eventuality ? Just a theoretical question as if Frawley had missed & the ball hadn't gone dead there was a risk LAR could have gone the length og the field & scored an unlikely try & conversion.

aloooof · 16-01-2024 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624540#Comment_121624540

My understanding is it's a penalty to the other team; it has to be a legit attempt, you can't deliberately kick it into touch. (And for it to hit touch, it'd require a slice so bad that it'd be hard to argue it wasn't deliberate).

I do remember ROG having a penalty years ago and you could hear him on the ref mic asking "can I miss it badly?", a request that was denied by the ref.

Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

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