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Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭ersatz


    The card is a footnote and could have been avoided. Teams under pressure give up cards, and Ireland have been very good at avoiding that.

    We are in incredible shape after the 6N, one knock on away from maximum points and 30 players used in the championship which shows the depth we have. RB has done very well, Sexton made it through the whole thing in good shape, Baird, ToT, JOB, and Treadwell got important playing time and a heap of players played their way back from injury. The expanded NZ tour and the development tour have really delivered. Roll on September.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Ill add Bealham to players getting really important playing time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    I saw them. They look like Stewart running forward, turn and elbow keenan in the head. But stills don't paint a full picture.

    But the original contention from Peyper apparently was that he should have turned sideways.

    Peyper didn't say this.



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,142 ✭✭✭fitz


    Contact is at Stewards elbow height, how the hell do you think he would have had a head injury if he hadn't turned and just soaked contact?

    Seriously, g'way outta that... 😂

    Of course head contact happens...but when it's avoidable, and it was clearly avoidable in this case, it's got to be punished as severely as possible in the short to medium term in order to change how players behave and are coached so that the risk of avoidable head contacts is reduced.

    That's not ruining the game, it's potentially saving it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    God bless your eyesight. 🤣

    As for whether Peyper said it or not, take it up with @q2ice who posted the quote.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 704 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    It wasn't Peyper's contention that Steward should have turned sideways.

    Steward said he didn't have time to avoid Kennan.

    Pepper replied 'You had time to turn sideways'. His implication was that Steward had enough time to make a decisive movement, contrary to what Steward had asserted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 704 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Is it not already the case that a fourth official is in place to monitor sin bins times, blood bin times, substitutes etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Those comments from ROG were very disappointing when I heard them. Expected more from him as a coach and person.

    Basically said that neither the risk of injurying a player nor the risk of being sent off and bans is enough incentive for him to change how he coaches his players to tackle safer. What they might lose in every tackle isn't worth it versus the risk.

    I was surprised more wasn't made of it at the time.

    Really shows what a negative step moving to the 20 minute cards would be, if anything points to the need of even harsher punishments until certain coaches cop on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    The 20 minute cards should never come in.

    This is driven by two nations in the sh. Every WC some law changes are mooted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I don't disagree that your take on his position is correct, but I understood him to be talking about legal hits that end up as illegal hits. Meaning that currently a legal tackle is pretty high (just below the shoulder) and that in some instances it makes perfect sense to hit at the maximum height to stop a player in his tracks. Hitting at the maximum height sometimes leads to illegal hits (he talked about getting your 'timing' wrong) but the risk/reward means players and coaches continue to do it. My takeaway was that the legal height is too high as it leads to head shots, especially given that coaches and players will always play the line.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    There were a good few, what are called seat belt tackles went unpunished from both sides.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I think that’s an extremely unfair reading of what ROG actually said, which was a lot more nuanced and caveated than that.

    (And I suspect that’s why a lot more wasn’t made of it).

    His basic point was that choke / maul tackles are still legal and that it’s more in his interest to coach Atonio to choke tackle / tackle at chest height (I.e. legally) than it is to chop tackle. (Again with caveats that it’s complicated / dynamic situation etc.)

    He practically started the conversation off by saying “I’ve told Uini, you’ve gotta go lower”.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 24,019 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    For me it's a red all day, twice on Sunday 😁

    Steward had a choice, he could have lowered his body position and had a text book tackle, he didn't, he pulled out of the tackle, jumped slightly and turned his body, no wrap, no mitigating circumstances, etc. etc., it's exactly the type of tackle they are trying to get out of the game, Keenan missed the rest of the game. I know the whole "rugby incident" thing coming out from ex-pros, but to me that's a load of bullshit, it's all about player safety now. Steward is 6'5 and 17 stone, that's a serious lump of muscle coming down the track, probably as close to a brick wall as you can come up against, having the likes of Matt Dawson/Clive Woodward complaining, well they can **** off, back in their day Josh Lesey was 5 11 and 14 stone, heck Lomu was the same height and a stone lighter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    @Clareman Lomu was nearer 18 stone than he was 16.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,197 ✭✭✭✭Crash


    In regard with the twenty minute rule, it absolutely driven by a view of the game going soft and ruining the spectacle, and looking to league as the competitive example.

    What I would say is, watch last year's State of Origin. Half those players won't remember whether or not they **** their pants 5 minutes ago in 15 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    Nearer 19 than he was 18. And that was in 1995 as a teenager!

    I always remember lomu listed in programs as 18st 8 lbs.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 24,019 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I was using Wiki for the heights and weights, rookie mistake Jonah Lomu - Wikipedia



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Wasn't sure if I misremembered so went back to listen and you're being extremely generous to him, giving him every benefit of the doubt. If Borthwick or Jones came out with that exact interview they'd be slated.

    Yes, he tried to caveat everything by continuously dropping in words for the importance of player safety but then when he got into details those words went out the window. It was 'player safety is of the upmost importance but...'

    ROG acknowledged, nearly gleefully, that the French player would have realised that he was much larger than Herring and said 'the mindset is that they're trying to get a shot in', 'this guy I'm going to shudder him', 'I want to buckle him'.

    He was given every opportunity to say that he coaches his team to tackle safer than was shown on the pitch that day but basically used the excuse that he has lots of other things to coach and can't coach every tackle scenario.

    For me, that all makes it crystal clear that ROG doesn't see enough incentive for him to take the time and effort to coach his players to put player safety and staying on the pitch over 'getting a shot in' that could end in concussing the opposition.

    The game needs to continue to shift the incentives until coaches have no other option than to focus on coaching players to be safer out there



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    ROG acknowledged, nearly gleefully, that the French player would have realised that he was much larger than Herring and said 'the mindset is that they're trying to get a shot in', 'this guy I'm going to shudder him', 'I want to buckle him'.

    ROG’s point was that Atonio can do that, legally. And that’s more advantageous to him than Atonio chop tackling and allowing a 1 second ruck.

    Do you think chest-high tackles should be legal?

    It seems to me your issue should be with the laws and World Rugby, rather than with ROG for coaching something that’s legal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Augme


    ROGs job as a coach is to win rugby matches, he's not the health and safety welfare officer. He's there to make the best decisions possible that will ensure his team win rugby matches. Its the responsibility of the Governing bodies and Unions to enact laws to ensure player safety. There's nothing stopping world rugby outlawing tackles above the waist. Expecting coaches to implement and coach to laws that don't exist is a cop out on World Rugby's part.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This is basically Foxtrol's point though. The current disincentives are clearly not high enough if coaches continue to coach players to hit up high cause its a net positive.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Which is a criticism that should be aimed at World Rugby, not at ROG.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Chop tackle and nailing Herring in the head were not the only two options Atonio had though and it was telling that ROG tried to paint that picture.

    If he wanted to go high and stop an offload he didn't have to try to 'buckle him' and risk seriously injurying the other player and potentially getting sent off.

    It seems to you that is my issue because that is literally what my OP was about if you read to the end before leaping to defend ROG from some perceived slight.

    Really shows what a negative step moving to the 20 minute cards would be, if anything points to the need of even harsher punishments until certain coaches cop on.

    ROGs response shows that there still isn't strong enough disincentives for ROG to coach his players to tackle in a way that is less risky to the opposition. I'm fine with chest high tackles being legal but if players choose that option, especially while aggressively getting 'a shot in', and get it wrong they should have the book thrown at them until they and their coaches think twice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Again, you're making my point for me.

    I'm using ROG as the example as he just came out and said the thing out loud - that for all the lip service of caring about player welfare he isn't incentivised to coach his players to tackle lower.

    I'm confident that many, many coaches feel the same way as him.

    It might be green tinted glasses but I feel the Irish set up is different and have their players tackling lower - their card stats support this. I'm not saying it is down to trying to be 'good', they clearly see the incentives of keeping 15 on the pitch as being enough compared to the big hits.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Chop tackle and nailing Herring in the head were not the only two options Atonio had though and it was telling that ROG tried to paint that picture.

    This is just not true. He described it as “complex, difficult, dynamic” among other things during the conversation.

    It seems to you that is my issue because that is literally what my OP was about if you read to the end before leaping to defend ROG from some perceived slight.

    In what way is the following a “perceived sleight”? Seems pretty literal to me.

    Expected more from him as a coach and person.

    And on this:

    I'm fine with chest high tackles being legal but if players choose that option, especially while aggressively getting 'a shot in', and get it wrong they should have the book thrown at them until they and their coaches think twice.

    Which, again, is an issue for World Rugby.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    The lads have decided. Not a red….not even a penalty….a rugby incident……. Saying all that - prob should have been a red in France game….




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,329 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    For a player who sustained as many concussions as he did, that's a bizarre take from Jackman.

    "Rugby incident" is a horrible invention.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 704 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Fortunately the lads are all able to bring the weight and value of their extensive playing & coaching experience to this subject, as none of them are brain injured (opinions may differ on this). A panel of ex players currently dealing with the long term effects of CTE might not come to the same conclusion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    This is just not true. He described it as “complex, difficult, dynamic” among other things during the conversation.

    It absolutely is true. When the presenter pushed him repeatedly on tackling lower ROG responded that he wouldn't want him chop tackling him and having a 1 second ruck. The presenter even corrected himself and said 'not low, lower' and ROG still kept talking as if a chop tackle was the only option.

    Coincidentally, you brought up chop tackles twice in relation to the options Atonio had. Both you and ROG are trying to paint that as the other option to how he could have dealt with the tackle when there are so many other options there, especially given the huge size difference.

    In what way is the following a “perceived sleight”? Seems pretty literal to me.

    That's absolutely a perceived sleight. I didn't say I think he is a thug or a scumbag - those would be sleights. I just said that I expected more in this situation, on the coaching side - based on how teams with lower card counts are becoming more and more successful - and on the personal side - his consistent words about player safety, which seem to be mostly just words.

    Which, again, is an issue for World Rugby.

    Which, again, is my whole point if you can stop focusing on defending ROG for one second and actually read my posts. ROG is just an example of a coach who clearly doesn't yet 'get it' despite the nice words he throws out there about player safety.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Augme



    But that's not ROGs fault if the disincentives are not high enough. As for the game needing to continue to shift, that's very open to opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    It was not a black and white decision. I think it was a red but I can also see why there are alternative arguments. Not sure any of that panel are apologists for dangerous play.



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,142 ✭✭✭fitz


    All of the alternative arguments ignore the entire point of severe sanctions though...to disincentivize the riskier tackling. People talk a good game about player safety, "but..."

    Looking at incidents in isolation without the broader context and intent and making cases for mitigation based on players being "unlucky" is effectively advocating for more of the same. Players need to not be putting themselves in positions where they'll be "unlucky" to have clobbered someone in the head.

    Obviously there will still be accidents, but what is it going to take for folks to stop letting players off the hook for dangerous play that's avoidable? Do we have to have a head injury related death in a high profile game? It's not like it hasn't happened over the last couple of years at lower levels.

    See what something like that does to ruin the "spectacle".



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    I'm like a broken record at this stage - where did I say it was ROG's fault? You're another who is tripping over themselves to defend him while not actually reading my posts.

    I am pointing ROG's description of his approach to coaching is a symptom of the issue - I've consistently highlighted the change needs to come from those who make the laws, which is World Rugby.

    I'd much rather the game didn't need to shift further but clearly certain coaches, players, pundits, fans still can't wrap their head around what needs to happen to avoid things getting even tougher.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If World Rugby sees nothing wrong with choke tackles they don't have much credibility and no coach is going to stop his players attempting them.

    They also need to take some actual action on the (illegal) practice of charging into rucks with the shoulder. James Ryan should probably have seen a red card (and not for the first time) for smashing Ludlam in the head in a ruck.

    But nothing is said, nothing is done.

    Post edited by pickarooney on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,762 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    This is exactly what he should have done. Difficult to do it in the heat of the moment. The hope is that players faced with similar scenarios in the future will err on the side of caution to reduce serious head collisions. It will take time. We will never ever eliminate serious head collisions but hopefully we can reduce them. I would like to know how many HIAs we had in the whole 6N and how it compares to previous years.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Rocky Magnificent Pacemaker


    I just cannot see any argument for it being anything other than red. If we look at the situation:

    1. Ireland are on the attack and in possession of the ball
    2. Hansen tries to pass to Keenan
    3. It goes forward, ref still hasn't stopped the play (I think, would need to double check that)
    4. Steward has taken a somewhat deep position presumably to cut off a stabbed through kick, he's not in the defensive line anyway
    5. He comes forward at pace when the ball goes to Keenan
    6. He is ALWAYS a tackler in this situation and should position himself as such
    7. He does not make a tackle, he ploughs into Keenan, shoulders him in the face, and forced him out of the game

    People keep saying he only had a split second to make a decision, imo this is total nonsense. He had from the moment he started moving forward to make a decision. His decision should have been that he was going to make a legal tackle on Keenan. I really don't think I can be convinced otherwise. You cannot, and should not be allowed to, make head contact like that and get away with it these days.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ey also need to take some actual action on the (illegal) practice of charging into rucks with the shoulder. James Ryan should probably have seen a red card (and not for the first time) for smashing Ludlam in the head in a ruck.

    but he didnt though. he bound on entry to two ireland players and pushed forward. Ludlum was off his feet yet still slowing the ball down. The fact ryan made contact with ludlums head was unfortunately, but in no way malicious or even foul play.

    people need to get this idea out of their head that every head contact is foul play. The sport is based on collisions and in a collision based sport there will always be head contacts. The question is what can the law makers do to REDUCE th enumber of head contacts. There is no way they could possibly amend any law to prevent james Ryan from doing what he did (text book rucking to be honest, bound and pushed directly forward) and still retain the game as it stands.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Donal Lenihan has been speaking and writing about the concussion issue with a good while. As per Aloof, Ireland show you can play great and winning rugby whilst largely avoiding dangerous tackling.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Yes , but they aren't a TMO , it's a different role.

    Those people are down on the sideline speaking to team managers and Doctors about Subs and HIA's etc.

    If the TMO is going to spend up to 8 minutes analysing video footage then you'll need another other to continue to monitor the game live.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You're painting it as very black-and-white, whereas everything ROG said was filled with caveats and disclaimers. But as another poster said, you can't expect coaches to implement coaching based on laws that don't yet exist.

    Anyways, pretty clear we're not going to agree so happy to leave it there. (Fwiw, I actually agree that World Rugby need to be stronger on this. That's what will change behaviour).



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I didn't find anything hugely problematic or surprising in what ROG said in that interview, but I did find it confirmation of how I believe coaches view this.

    You often hear commentators making statements about how they can't believe how players won't learn and lower the tackle height, but ROG's comments (and I expect his views on this are representative of virtually every coach in the game) indicate that until the rules change, coaches will coach to them, and are not telling their players to lower their tackle heights.

    In the past 20 years we've seen a lot of changes and innovations to the game, most notably around the ruck, and for the most part players have adapted without a hitch. The reason players are still hitting high frequently is because they are doing so to prevent offloads, prevent quick ruck ball etc, and this is still being coached into them.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    In the past 20 years we've seen a lot of changes and innovations to the game, most notably around the ruck, and for the most part players have adapted without a hitch. 

    Two that come to mind for me, that have been adapted to, are 1) driving a player beyond the horizontal and 2) contests in the air (thinking the Jared Payne incident; that was seen as harsh at the time, but is a pretty clear red-card now). There's probably more.

    Tackling obviously occurs far more frequently than those examples, and with the dangers of a slightly mis-timed chest-high tackle, it's something World Rugby need to get right.

    Part of the issue is that when incidents like this happen, the range of outcomes is anywhere between penalty to red-card; I don't think there's much clarity. Add in the occasional disparty between what the ref decides on the field and what the discipline panel decide afterward, it all becomes muddier.

    For me, when the Stewart one happened, the Atonio yellow was the one that came to mind for me, and is a much clearer red imo. Herring had the ball significantly earlier than Keenan collected it.

    When the likes of Atonio's tackle can be deemed yellow on the field, but upgraded to a ban afterwards, it's pretty understandable some people will see Stewart's red as harsh in that context.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭TheRona


    The problem is that a lot of red cards are in completely random situations, and the chances of a player being in that exact situation again is very rare. Steward stepped up into the line as the ball was loose after being lost forward, and then it was gathered a split second before the collision.

    Compare this to something like Porter against NZ last summer. 6'8" Retallick running in a straight line in an upright position from several metres out. Porter chooses to make a high tackle, resulting in a broken cheekbone and putting the opposition player out for several months. Even in the disciplinary hearing, it is deemed that it isn't a red card, due to it being a 'passive' tackle. My argument is that this is the type of tackle that should be disincentivized, because it is about as normal and mundane as a tackling situation gets, and there's no excuse for poor technique, passive or not.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    His first point of contact in that ruck is with Ludlam's head. He only pushes after he's clattered him and he has to have seen him sticking out of the ruck on his way in.

    As long as the sport allows this kind of thing, any pretence at putting player safety first should be ignored.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    For those that haven't seen it, this is the James Ryan incident. I think he can consider himself lucky, and I certainly don't see it as "textbook rucking", tbh Syd.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    The Ryan v Ludlam is a grey area. Like so much of rugby 😁 Ryan hits the ruck, binds and drives. Yes there is head contact but he doesn't tuck his arm and go shoulder first. It's a bit like when ball carriers are picking and driving on the try line. They're so low that there is almost always head contact from the tackler but its allowed as long as they use their arms.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Rocky Magnificent Pacemaker


    Hasn't really seen that before, definitely looks like there's head contact and that could have seen a card.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I was curious so I just had a search of the laws and there is no mention of a "rugby incident". I get what people are getting at with that term but what are the refs supposed to be do when it doesn't exist within the laws. The Rugby Pod lads just called it a rugby incident. It's the equivalent of saying **** happens.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    **** just does happen, though. Ringrose knocked himself out by smacking his head on another player's hip. Neither player did anything wrong but the result was a TBI.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,197 ✭✭✭✭Crash


    What monster tweets a video of a video player??



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