Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

Foxtrol · 21-03-2023 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382323#Comment_120382323

ROG absolutely spoke out of both sides of his mouth but when it came down to the straight forward question about coaching he was crystal clear that he didn't feel incentivized to divert coaching time to focus on safer tackle technique in different scenarios in the manner many would expect given the increasing sanctions.

Time and again when there is head contact it is asked by commentators and fans how it keeps happening - many of these deemed as 'accidents' or 'unfortunate'. An element is that coaches, including ROG, aren't coaching players to be more careful.

pickarooney · 21-03-2023 1:42pm

Coaches are simply never going to abandon techniques that are both successful and legal. ROG was simply honest about the status quo and deserves more respect for that than if he bullshitted about telling his players to avoid risky tackles while doing nothing of the sort.

If and when chest-high tackles, choke tackles, cleaning out rucks and other risky/dangerous practices are outlawed, ROG and other coaches will adapt but the game is currently reffed entirely on the outcome and not on the techniques themselves.

stephen_n · 21-03-2023 1:47pm

Instead of multiple threads getting derailed by debates around red cards. It might be handy to have a rolling thread to discuss all these incidents and elements to them?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058289108/the-should-it-or-should-it-not-be-a-red-card-thread/p1?new=1

sydthebeat · 21-03-2023 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382840#Comment_120382840

difference of opinion then. ryan is doing everything hes been coached to do since he was a chap.....

what coaching point do you pick him up on then?

AMKC · 21-03-2023 2:14pm

So I see Freddie Stewart will be before a disciplinary hearing this afternoon and its understood that the English Union will look to have the red card dismissed. I have looked at the incident a number of times and its very clear that Stewart made the decision to turn and use his elbow against the Irish Rugby player. No way was it an accident. He could have kept going the way he was and not turn at all in which case nothing would have happened or he could have let the Irish player hit the front of him but no he used his side and his elbow so it is quiet clearly a red card.

aloooof · 21-03-2023 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383314#Comment_120383314

It's textbook rucking if Ludlam's head isn't where it is. But it is, and he has a pretty clear line of sight, so he needs to adapt.

I can tell you what law I pick him up on; at a ruck, a player must not make contact above the line of the shoulders. It's pretty clear foul play.

Foxtrol · 21-03-2023 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383183#Comment_120383183

That is exactly my original and continued point.

I don't think ROG deserves respect for being honest, he kept throwing out a bunch of niceties about how important player safety is at the same time. I agree he let the mask slip and was more honest about it than most coaches but plenty of bullshit in there too, which clearly some here latched on to defend him.

I'd argue that some coaches have adapted to the new guidance. You don't regularly see Irish players putting them into a position where there is a risk of a negative outcome. They're either incredibly lucky or coached to use techniques in certain scenarios so they minimize the chance of being penalised (and the opposition injured). You'll never mitigate all risk but improving technique can substantially lower it.

Contrast Ireland's approach to the multiple late/borderline hits from England got away during the game outside of the red card that could have been penalised. As another poster said 'sh1t happens' but you can take steps to put yourself in a position for it to be less likely to happen while also being successful.

AbusesToilets · 21-03-2023 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382840#Comment_120382840

He has bad form for this, has similar ballistic entries in most games. It's a side of his game i wish he'd stamp out

Quin_Dub · 21-03-2023 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383924#Comment_120383924

To be honest that "Torpedo" style ruck entry is an issue across the board.

Simple to fix - Penalise any player going off their feet at the ruck.

If you can't hit it and clear out whilst keeping your feet , then tough.

Solves a huge amount of the injury risk at the breakdown - Players will have to slow down as they approach and pick their spot to ensure they can hit and remain upright.

That takes a lot of the velocity out of the contact and reduces injury risk - Probably increases the number of turn-overs as well.

aloooof · 21-03-2023 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120383899#Comment_120383899

Has anyone thought to check the Top 14 discipline stats to see where La Rochelle are in that regard, to see what the actual evidence is with regards ROG? I might have a look later if I get the chance.

aloooof · 21-03-2023 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384112#Comment_120384112

Had a quick look at this:

La Rochelle have conceded 6 yellow cards and 1 red in 20 rounds this season. Their opponents have conceded 16 yellow cards and 1 red.

Seems like ROG is doing exactly what some are calling for.

stephen_n · 21-03-2023 7:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120384472#Comment_120384472

Are you not including the 2 red cards he picked up as a coach this season, no?

aloooof · 21-03-2023 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385031#Comment_120385031

Noooope.

21-03-2023 9:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120382096#Comment_120382096

Sorry for quoting myself, and sorry for continuing to talk about the red card, but just came across this photo. Look at where he is ffs. There is quite obviously zero chance he's getting to the ball before Keenan, he has all that time and space to make a decision, not this bullshit 0.3s or 0.6s.

FrancieBrady · 22-03-2023 9:01am

Marray Kinsella tweeting that Steward's card has been rescinded. Nothing official yet.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1638465367591858180

22-03-2023 9:04am

Mad.

prawnsambo · 22-03-2023 9:09am

Looking forward to reading the report.

part time punk · 22-03-2023 9:27am

Seen it mentioned a couple of times about choke tackles being dangerous. Just wondering if anyone can explain that a bit more to me. Usually static enough, rarely see head contact etc Thought it would be one of the safer scenarios. Am I missing something?

Quin_Dub · 22-03-2023 9:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386550#Comment_120386550

It's not the tackle itself that is dangerous , it's the body positions required to make the tackle that introduce greater risk.

To be in a position to execute a choke tackle means that the defender has to be in an upright position and they are also seeking to keep the attacker upright as well.

Because everybody is upright , the chances of head contact are increased over a scenario where the defender is looking to go lower to bring the attacker to ground.

sydthebeat · 22-03-2023 9:44am

Yeah the risk of head contact is increased, but the risk of head contact trauma is reduced as a choke tackle almost invariably are soak tackles when the impact is not from the tackler but the ball carrier.

It's the dominant hit tackle that causes the worst head contact (aki v England and Samoa for example). Those aren't choke tackles.

TheRona · 22-03-2023 10:00am

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1638476179421249536

I guess this is what most neutrals would agree with. England must be wondering what they could have achieved if they had their full 15 players on for an extra half hour.

TheRona · 22-03-2023 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120385406#Comment_120385406

This is the picture you should be looking at. When Keenan gets the ball, there's only a quarter of a second until impact. At this point Steward is already trying to pull out. In your picture there's a loose ball from a knock-on. Who knows which way it might bounce.

OldRio · 22-03-2023 10:06am

Good risk and/or reward policy for teams. Take an opposition player out of the game and you only get 10 minutes with having to play with 14.

Just remember turn sideways, elbow up and look surprised.

prawnsambo · 22-03-2023 10:12am

Full decision here. Or at least this is what's been released so far. Probably a synopsis. Pretty much seems to echo what Shaggy said at the time. Basically reckless play with the mitigating factor of Keenan being almost bent double at the point of impact.

squidgainz · 22-03-2023 10:18am

Hahahaha all your bolix posturing on here , oh I've played rugby 20 years and your as per the rules blah blah blah , world rugby didn't think it was a red. I guess me like a lot of people and nearly everyone not on Boards was correct with it being a harsh red.

irelandrover · 22-03-2023 10:35am

I can't understand that decision. If they had said there was no foul play and hence the red rescinded i could understand it at least, even if i don't agree.

But there was no late change from Keenan. Stewart had a clear line of sight, could see Keenan duck to pick up the ball, and have time to turn so how can it be a late change. This seems to be a nothing decision from them.

22-03-2023 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386711#Comment_120386711

I think it's clear before Keenan is physically touching the ball, that he will regather it. A professional fullback like Stewart should be able to anticipate that. The screenshot should be somewhere between the two moments.

AdamD · 22-03-2023 11:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386711#Comment_120386711

The first photo is far more valid, people aren't wrapping their heads around where the sport is going at all IMO. Steward needs to make the decision far earlier and any defender sprinting full tilt at the line needs to realise they've brought themselves into a risk reward scenario. By sprinting to the line the defender reduces their decision making time and increases their likelihood of foul play.

The Atonio yellow/non-red is another example, he sprints out of the line and doesn't give himself time to get his body in position to make a legal tackle. If you're gonna sprint like that, you need to be Ringrose or Keenan-esque with your technique.

FrattonFred · 22-03-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386713#Comment_120386713

why bother risking a yellow card when all you have to do is run head first into their elbow and get them sent off.

OldRio · 22-03-2023 12:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387129#Comment_120387129

You tend to get yourself either knocked out or fail a HIA. The repercussions for such actions are not very beneficial to one's health.

FrattonFred · 22-03-2023 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387039#Comment_120387039

so defenders should only walk towards the attackers? Brilliant plan.

In that first photo, Steward is expecting the ball to come out normally to Keenan, who is going to catch it and run at hm, so he is attacking the ball carrier who he expects to be coming at him in a normal position.

That doesn't happen though, as the ball squirts forward so Steward then has to decide if he can gather it himself or kick it, neither of which he can do, he is then confronted with Keenan coming at him, obviously not in control as he is bent double and almost stumbling after stooping to gather the ball. His reaction is then instinctive and he shields himself from the inevitable impact.

My biggest issue with the whole thing, is that Peyper was clearly looking to send the player off, as he did not entertain any mitigations, despite there being loads. In this scenario, world rugby needs to give a clear mandate, does Freddie Steward need to be red carded? is it an obvious dangerous act, or is there mitigation. When is isn;t clear cut, does the ref err on the side of the player, or on giving the card.

Me being cynical, would say that this is either Peyper wanted be the big man and show who is in charge by over referring (an increasingly common complaint with rugby) or him simply being a homer and reacting tot eh reaction of the crowd.

This was pretty much a nothing match, as I don't think it affected the outcome of the game, but imagine if this happened in a world cup final and it was Sexton on the receiving end?

Brewster · 22-03-2023 12:34pm

Correct decision. Ireland got a break on Saturday, I fully expect we would have won the game regardless, but no doubt decision benefited us.

Rugby is a dangerous game at times, and this was nothing more than a rugby incident, of a defending player bracing himself for impact.

prawnsambo · 22-03-2023 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387294#Comment_120387294

I didn't hear it said myself, but Peyper is reported to have said "in the current climate..." before giving the red card.

On the one hand, you could look at that as awareness of what an important issue it is, but at the same time concerned that the politics of the situation is his first thought rather than an objective view of the incident. I assume the 'climate' is the one surrounding Wayne Barnes and Uni Atonio.

ButtersSuki · 22-03-2023 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379111#Comment_120379111

Seems the Disciplinary Committe agreeing with my thinking. I'll have to apply for my Referee's Licence I think......🤣

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/03/22/englands-freddie-steward-cleared-after-red-card-overturned-from-ireland-game/

FrattonFred · 22-03-2023 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387380#Comment_120387380

I've just watched it again and he did indeed say that.

So it appears Peyper was covering his own arse based on poor instruction from World Rugby. Safer for him to send someone off than give them a yellow and face any flack. Does this mean Referees will be looking at a player and the deciding point between red and yellow cards is how much stick the ref leave himself open to? If that is the case, they will be throwing around reds like confetti

Rangy · 22-03-2023 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120387000#Comment_120387000

No he can’t anticipate where the ball was going because it was released forward at the last minute by Hansen. Thus changing his trajectory of where he expected contact to be made on the gainline with the player. And remember fullbacks have to break their balls to make up ground to stop the attacker on or before the gainline they are literally going full pelt to get to the attacker on time before he gets into space.

He closed down the space like a hard working defender and the ball was spilled forward last minute thus changing the point of expected contact. When you’re moving at that speed it’s very hard to correct your trajectory. Introducing a duty of care will lead to stand offish games where the more negative side absorb the harder working side into critical errors like this.

22-03-2023 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388142#Comment_120388142

We're talking about two different moments. I'm specifically referring to the previous screenshot of how close Stewart was when Keenan gathers.

After the ball spills, it bounces and then it's clear that Keenan is going to gather after this bounce, before Keenan actually has possession. Stewart had more time than that screenshot implies. Enough time to turn his shoulder as the Jaco Peyper says.

Rangy · 22-03-2023 5:00pm

There was a moment of confusion. The ball had spilled forward therefore there is no chance the attacking team are going to be allowed play on. Steward therefore went for it to gather. Keenan should have been the one to retract because it was knocked on and had no rights to the ball.

Perhaps the ref blew his whistle. There are numerous moments which could have led to confusion and whoever has rights to the ball after a knock on can lead to that player continuing on to gather it. Perhaps the duty of care shifts from the defensive player who has now in an instant become the attacking player because the ball was knocked on and Keenan becomes the defender in that moment.

All I know is that for a contestable ball when you’re going full tilt it’s hard to change your trajectory. But despite that Steward still can’t stop with the velocity he’s going at. It’s harder for a larger man to start and stop when running.

22-03-2023 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388589#Comment_120388589

Perhaps the duty of care shifts from the defensive player who has now in an instant become the attacking player because the ball was knocked on and Keenan becomes the defender in that moment.

Probably the actual worst take on this so far.

The disciplinary committee still found that Steward committed an act of foul play that warranted a red card, they just accepted there was sufficient mitigation to downgrade it. Claiming Keenan is responsible here is nonsensical.

We've just won a Grand Slam and yet there have probably been 600 posts on this red card. It's actually unbelievable.

Rangy · 22-03-2023 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388625#Comment_120388625

I don’t believe it was foul play. He contested for the ball and a rugby incident happened. Duty of care shifts to Keenan to remove himself once ball is knocked on and he becomes the defender.

The committee didn’t go as far as to undermine an official completely but a black white viewing of player hits another players head with shoulder therefore he is at fault , is wrong

AdamD · 22-03-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388589#Comment_120388589

Keenan has every right to the ball after a knock on - he isn't obligated to give the other side the ball and advantage.

22-03-2023 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120388654#Comment_120388654

He didn't contest for the ball at all, he turned his shoulder/side into a player who had just gathered the ball.

ersatz · 22-03-2023 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120386711#Comment_120386711

Arguably this makes it worse because he's a tackler. No arms, upright, head contact, at speed...the same defense could be used in any failed tackle. I get that the circumstances are unusual due to the knock on but Keenan has the ball and he hits him without wrapping or lowering his height.

Water John · 22-03-2023 8:04pm

The standard move as the tackler was to wrap his arms around Keenan. Keenans momentum would then mean Steward would possibly fall backward.

One could describe it as a Ronan O'Gara type tackle. Not very elegant but effective, with some risk of getting hurt himself.

aloooof · 22-03-2023 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120389237#Comment_120389237

The problem with this tho is that he's not the tackler until Keenan regathers the balls. If Keenan had the ball from some of the stills above when there's a large gap between them, and there was the same collision, I don't think anywhere near as many people would be arguing it wasn't a red.

Ireland v England Grand Slam Decider 2023

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