The distance debate

My thoughts on this are that amateurs and pros do not play the same game already so limiting pros shouldn't make a difference. If you think your irons, driver, ball and whatever else you can name are the same as Rahms, Rorys or JTs then you are mistaken. Callaway make several 'tour only' driver heads that amateurs cannot buy. JTs irons are one of a kind bespoke titleist MBs, Rorys the same except TM. Wedges are usually handmade for pros and a significant number of pros use golf balls that aren't availabe to the public. Left Dash ProV1s were a popular tour ball that only recently became available to amateurs but there are others that are still tour only. As well as that, Rory uses a 2019 TP5, I believe Spieth is using a 2019 ProV1 and loads of other tour pros use previous versions of a ball that aren't available to the general public. The driver heads are also 'hot', as in they are as close to the CT limit as possible. Amateurs do not get this option. Could go on here but I think the point is clear enough.

To add to that, I get that its nice to compare your round to a pros at the same venue but again you might as well compare a Polo to a Ferrari. You're not playing off the tips and the setup is nowhere near what it would be for a tour event so the idea that you can't compare yourself to pros is correct, but it was fantasy anyway so this doesn't change anything IMO. If you are that concerned about testing yourself against the pros you will be able to buy these pro balls and have at it. Somehow I suspect the amount of players beyond elite amateurs taking up that option will be very low.

Its already proven that tightening fairways and adding rough doesn't overcome the advantage that distance gives you so I don't get why that is being suggested as an alternative. We've heard that for years and its made no difference when courses have attempted it and there is data to support that with SG. Worth keeping in mind that sustainability is a big part of this too. Courses cannot just continue to expand in size and in maintenance costs because manufacturers have developed some new tech.

For anyone against this change i'd like to ask how far is too far? Is 8000 yards too long? What about 10,000? If we continue to allow distance to grow we'll end up with all of the classic courses being obsolete and stuck with horrific PGA only courses purpose built to cater to the pro game. I'd be shocked if anyone wants that for the game. Would love to hear some other suggestions too from those against this change.

Exactly so many people are stuck in their own bubble and not just when it comes to golf.

At my course maybe 7 of the 14 par 4s are driveable off the regular white tees, with the problem a lot worse in winter. Have played with guys who can hit the middle of our 310/320 signature hole with a 3 wood! And they're not leaving to play the PGA Tour any day soon!

Also played with a guy of 12/15ish who hit it to the fringe on a 375 yard par 4 scaring the hell out of the group ahead. Now he was mostly going around just trying to bash the ball as hard as he can, if that's his idea of golf maybe he gives it up of the ball gets rolled back. But there's always long drive and the range if you just want to bash it.

People saying it doesn't need to change would they advocate no restrictions on ball speeds and equipment tolerances?! Because they have always existed, we're just argued over where they should be set and what their objective should be. Protecting the massive investment we've already made on courses alongside ecological concerns especially ongoing water shortages worldwide should be our priority.

Golf as we know and always loved needs protecting right now imo.

7 par 4s around 300 yards is a very short course roll back or not

but they did implement ball and clubs restrictions 20 years ago

no they were roll back rules, because some clubs became illegal after it for being too hot

the game of golf has changed, you have the likes of nick faldo at 6 foot 4 driving the ball 250 yards, right, others were hitting it further, but yet he won

its the players and the tech/analysis around the game that has brought it on, the number of fat players on tour has diminished

i think he is wrong, when you can measure and get the ball to perfect launch conditions, and the clubs and balls are limited, the only other place left is speed and for all the talk of bryson what has he won, one US open

what score do you think he should have shot? He had an all time amazing putting performance and a bit of luck to get to that score

what would be the upside also? it doesn't really matter either way

the point of the video was to sell clubs, that's it

were taylormade telling you the stealth one was unforgiving last year? no of course not

i can assure you not hitting the middle is still penalising, despite what taylormade say

you just arent hitting it far enough outside the middle

I really do think this would be of benefit to the amateur game too. There are far far too many people hitting it too far for regular member courses now. It's not just the scratch guys - the younger guys with decent handicaps, in particular those who played growing up can all carry the ball far further than people like them did 30 years ago. And the result is that courses play very differently to the way they were designed. Hazards drop out of play, dog legs start in the wrong place, very few par 5s are 3 shot par 5s, par 3s are now reachable with mid-high irons making the greens far easier to hold. So a lot of the defences of the courses are in play more for those hitting the ball shorter distances, typically the weaker golfers. This isn't actually the opposite of the way it should be - everyone wants hazards in play for them. But if you could have more weighted towards one set of golfers it would be towards the better guys. And then simply on the length of courses - what you have now are courses that are too long for some people and too short for others. The young guy who came through the junior ranks and would have been hitting it 240 yards 30 years ago might be hitting it 270 now. And if he's within 230 yards of the green he might be happy enough that he'll be able to carry it there instead of 200 yards back then. Whereas the older golfer who might have been hitting it 200 yards 30 years ago could be at 215 now and have made similarly smaller gains for their approach too. The redesigns needed for courses for the longer and shorter hitters are too different to be practicable.

If you could narrow the dispersion of distances (by reducing everyone's distances by a percentage) there would be less need for course redesign and it would be easier (and cheaper) to do.

how many people do you think are reaching par 5s in 2 shots?

This may be a bubble, but one of our par 5 is reachable, the other not so much, but having played with in excess of maybe 200 different people, 1 has hit the green in 2 circa 480-500 yards tad uphill

the odd person has made the distance, maybe 3-4

I've met many players who think that's how far they hit it

even on the shorter one, the number who reach are tiny

the general issue is bomb and gouge merchants making mincemeat out of course

if thats not about scoring then what is it?

environmentally, golf could do a lot

I don't see the issue with rolling back the ball. If they were allowed, manufacturers could create a balls and clubs that would go a lot further - so if you have an issue with rolling back the ball, would you be happy to let the manufacturers at it and have unregulated equipment? We're already using "throttled" equipment, so what difference does it make bringing in a little bit more.

Look for me it is really tricky. But I think Chris Solomen (Soly) on NoLayingUp does pose an interesting question/hypothetical when considering this whole debate.

As a baseline for the pro's: Is a 400y drive as a standard too far? I think most people will say yes. Is a 200y drive as a standard too short? Again I think most people will again say yes. So in essence we are in agreement there is a hypothetical window that a drive should travel. What the R&A and USGA are doing is trying to define that window. And bring it back from where it is heading.

For me I also see the differing changes and I can see some parallels to F1. They bring out a set of rules - and these drivers/engineers/car manufacturers obey those rules but every year come up with new and clever ideas/designs/tactics to allow the cars continually get faster while obeying the rules. The last equipment rule change was (to my untrained eye) very focused on the "bounce" of the clubface & gave a bit of leeway in the driver headsize etc. In the subsequent years the players/ball/clubs/shafts have all been working to push the physical/mental/technology boundaries to get more length & they will continue to do so

Same where I play, two par 5s (par 70) and most younger single digit players are typically going for it in 2 if any sort of decent drive. Depending on the tees it can be anything from a 3 wood to a 5i. I have seen one guy hitting an 8i into one of them, admittedly after a massively wind assisted drive but there are some very long amateurs out there these days. Obviously depends on who you are playing with, i've also played with people who are taking 3 good shots to get anywhere near those same greens, even hitting driver, 3 wood, 3 wood in one case. Older players who have lost their distance but still have their accuracy suffer most from the longer tees in my experience. Some real life data here that makes for interesting reading https://mygolfspy.com/arccos-2021-distance-report/ Its pretty clear that many golfers are playing off tees that are too long for them but i'm not sure what the solution is for that. The USGA tried a 'tee it forward' campaign and it flopped, i'd expect the same reaction here to be honest.

Who's punishing them? They'll still have the distance advantage. And I might not be at the top end of hitters, but I am talking about myself here. I wanti to see a row back in distance because I want to hit more of the clubs in my bag. God knows I paid enough for them. And I don't want to do it by choosing to handicap myself by not hitting the most suitable club from each tee.