General Irish politics discussion thread

Larbre34 · 23-03-2023 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120391587#Comment_120391587

Not so long as pot-holes are filled or planning permission sorted.

Which goes back to the elephant in the room of Irish politics, that people are elected to the national parliament on the back of what trivia they can sort out locally and are kept there by continuing to sort it out.

Mattie McGrath or Michael Lowry or Michael Healy-Rae could stab a granny in the middle of the main street of the biggest town on their patch and they'd still be returned with a couple of quotas.

Loafing Oaf · 23-03-2023 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392535#Comment_120392535

Yeah they're the biggest beasts in the independent jungle but others have a more tenuous hold on their seats and might be vulerable to the SF surge.

In the end five members of the RIG, Seán Canney, Denis Naughten, Michael Lowry, Cathal Berry and Matt Shanahan, voted with the Government while two, Verona Murphy and Peter Fitzpatrick, voted against and another RIG deputy, Noel Grealish, was not present.

Canney, Shanahan & Berry would certainly see themselves as having a broader political agenda than getting potholes filled in for their constituents or whatever it is. Odd that Murphy & Fitzpatrick, who are FG gene pool and would be regarded as two of the most right-wing deputies in the Dail, voted against...

FrancieBrady · 23-03-2023 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392535#Comment_120392535

Not all that unusual in political systems. Look at the amount of 'safe seats' in the UK for instance.

Water John · 23-03-2023 6:14pm

Listening to Claire Byrne show this morning. A piece done on evictions had one guy, from a dormitory town of Dublin. He and his wife, a nurse had five children, one non verbal autistic. They lived in a rented house he valued at €500,000, on notice of eviction. Not sure what the answer for them is? All he wants he said is an affordable house.

Water John · 23-03-2023 6:16pm

I put the above in this thread as it was in direct response to yesterdays Dail vote.

hotmail.com · 23-03-2023 10:00pm

I note the ridiculous assertion by Holly Cairns that this generation is worse off than the last has been called out as completely preposterous.

Either her parents were millionaires or else hasn't a clue about recent Irish history.

Larbre34 · 23-03-2023 11:05pm

Its door number 3, its just the narrative that her desperate no-mark party requires. Irrespective of its veracity.

Loafing Oaf · 23-03-2023 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392585#Comment_120392585

Labour senator Mark Wall on Tonight Show discussion of eviction ban and related matters mentions 'government & government independents' in his first answer. I'm sure it's entirely coincidental that he'll be running in the same constituency as one of those independents, Cathal Berry...

Good loser · 24-03-2023 3:46am

On The Late Debate presenter C O Mongain persistently (4/5 times) asking FG (O Donnell) what was the evidence/study that showed the Eviction Ban was driving landlords out of the market. He was at the same crack last week. To my mind the question was just fatuous. How could evidence be generated without having a before/after study which could only be done once the Ban was removed and even then months (many?) would have to elapse. The obvious answer to give was that as no evidence was given when the Ban was introduced none was needed when it was removed.

Further to support his question he quoted a Sherry Fitz spokeswoman who had said what drove landlords out was increased regulation; he didn't seem to understand that the imposition of the Ban was just such a type of regulation.

He later read a text from a landlord with 3 properties who said if the ban was continued he was going to leave the market. Without comment!

blanch152 · 24-03-2023 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394326#Comment_120394326

Unfortunately, the hysteria on this issue has overwhelmed the evidence and the facts.

Water John · 24-03-2023 11:45am

Aren't people going to live in the house anyway, whether it's rented or sold?

Its more units are needed.

blanch152 · 24-03-2023 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395064#Comment_120395064

Which is why an eviction ban makes no sense at all.

Francis McM · 24-03-2023 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395064#Comment_120395064

Correct, more units are needed in Ireland, but there is a shortage of skilled labour. Many of those who are skilled are middle aged as very few young people have been trained since the economic bust in 2007/8.

It was said in January 2015 "just seven newly-qualified plasterers, eight painter decorators and 27 new brick layers to enter the jobs market by 2018, they don't expect to see many Irish workers on their site.

"I can't understand how we had something back in 1970 that worked better than the system today. All we're doing is spending money and creating more and more problems and we're not solving them at all."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-used-to-be-best-in-the-world-but-not-anymore-say-comer-brothers-30880252.html

The government and EU probably spend more money and effort on Irish language translators in Brussels translating EU documentation in to Irish, and which will never be read, than on training building apprentices in this country.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-the-most-expensive-eu-language-to-translate-36086403.html

In addition to that, all EU documents are translated into Irish as well as the other 23 working languages of the union.

Last year, "There are currently 170 Irish language staff in the European institutions and about 30 more staff will shortly be recruited, according to the Irish government."

https://www.dw.com/en/brussels-gives-irish-an-upgrade-to-full-eu-working-language/a-60306645

Personally, given the housing crises in the country, I think more people should be trained to build buildings than are being employed translating EU documents in to Irish that nobody will read.

Not surprised many in the UK wanted to leave the EU when this was just one small example of money being squandered. 200 highly paid Irish language translators in the EU for a country of 5 million which does not even have an Irish language newspaper ffs.

Brussels Sprout · 24-03-2023 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395064#Comment_120395064

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395098#Comment_120395098

No offence but that's a very simplistic way of looking at the matter. That's for a number of reasons.

One reason is that you have landlords with properties in rent pressure zones who will be evicting people in order to get around the cap on the maximum allowable rent increases. They evict them on one of the allowable excuses (selling, moving in a relative or undergoing major renovation work) and then lo and behold the property appears back in daft shortly after with a dramatically larger rent. Even if the original tenants were able to get back in (highly unlikely) it'd be at a massive increase in their rent.

Even in scenarios where the eviction reasons are legitimate, such as a sale, either that property ultimately ends up back on the rental market at an inflated price or it's gone from the rental market forever.

The net outcomes of all of the above are the same disastrous consequences for the tenants who are being evicted. Even beyond the cost of rent many of these people will be evicted from properties that they have lived in for years - places were their children are in schools. Places where their health care professionals are nearby. That would be ok if we had a normally functioning housing market but the reality is that they may very well find it impossible to find anywhere close by.

If people don't understand how dysfunctional the rental market is at this stage then they almost certainly haven't had the soul destroying experience of going to view a rental property and seeing 20+ people already there queuing up to give their details to the agent.

This is absolutely a political own goal. The actual evictions have not begun yet and the awful stories are already streaming out. It's going to to be brutal next month. I really do think that much like when previous governments cut disability allowance or taxed children's shoes this is going to be one of those things that stick in people's memories.

awec · 24-03-2023 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395064#Comment_120395064

Rented property generally houses more people than owner occupied.

If you take a 2 bed apartment, an owner occupier is likely to live alone while a renter will likely have a housemate. In a 3 bed house, you'd have 3 tenants but probably only 2 owner occupiers.

If 20 2 bed apartments are sold up, that's 20 tenants. 10 of them can become home owners, the other 10 add to the demand for rentals. And the supply of rentals has just dropped by 20.

PeadarCo · 24-03-2023 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395387#Comment_120395387

Tenants can and do take cases where landlords evict for false reasons.

But I'd agree the rental market is disfunctional but it's a rental market ie you rent. It's done in the context of where there are no such thing as long term tenancies. The Irish residential market is not set up for long term rentals.

While it means landlords can evict for specified reasons at effectively any time it also means tenants can leave at any time and don't need to give any reason.This is very different from commercial leases which are hard to get out of. If the residential market were to be ran similarly tenants would have to sign up to multi year leases and but liable for all rent during that period even if they wanted to leave early. It would be a sea change in how people view rented property.

Your point about a person living in a location for years sums up the issue with some tenants that is driving landlords out of the rental market. Just because a person has rented a place for years it does not mean they own it. At some point they will have to vacate. It has to be planned for. Unfortunately due to fixed duration rentals not being enforceable under Irish law it's impossible to plan.

What Ireland needs is laws around residential tenancies that gives certainty(rent price and duration) to both landlords and tenants and reflects the fact some peoplemay be reliant on the private rental market for decades. It's something that would be far far more beneficial that rent pressure zones, eviction bans etc.

What the Irish housing market needs is supply but pretty much every Irish politican will lobby on behalf of constituents to oppose new housing developments and actively contributing to the homeless problem.

blanch152 · 24-03-2023 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395387#Comment_120395387

That simply isn't true.

Once a rent is registered with the RTB, it can't be increased in a rent control zone unless the property has been vacant for two years. Your scenario is therefore incorrect.

The point of rented property versus owner-occupied is that it is transient. It isn't ever meant to be permanent.

blanch152 · 24-03-2023 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395637#Comment_120395637

That isn't necessarily true.

In my extended family, a couple bought a two-bed apartment that had been rented to a single person and they both live there now while renting out the spare bedroom under the rent-a-room scheme. One tenant replaced by three.

Brussels Sprout · 24-03-2023 6:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396427#Comment_120396427

Just because those are the rules doesn't mean that there aren't people out there riding rough shod over them.

There are also rules that you need to have planning permission for Air BnBs, which are being completely ignored:

The point of rented property versus owner-occupied is that it is transient. It isn't ever meant to be permanent.

Is it? According to whom? For example, if you asked a German they'd certainly disagree. Or maybe all of the people in this country who have lived in a rental properties for large parts of their lives. It certainly seems permanent to them.

Rental property is seen as a temporary stepping stone to some people but to an increasingly larger cohort it is literally their only option.

Pete_Cavan · 24-03-2023 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397043#Comment_120397043

Just because there are some people riding rough shod over the rules doesn't mean there shouldn't be rules.

As was said, once a rent is registered with the RTB in a pressure zone, the amount of rent the next tenant pays is limited the same as if the landlord tries to up the rent for a sitting tenant. Landlords can't just remove a tenant and then have free rein to then set the rent at any level for the next tenant. Evicting a tenant is likely to cost a landlord money (potentially cleaning/repair costs, legal fees, no rent between lettings, etc.) rather than earn them more.

PommieBast · 25-03-2023 1:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397628#Comment_120397628

The one stat I would really like to see is what happened to lets that were given up by tenants between Q2-2020 and Q2-2021. I thought a lot of landlords having seen tenants leave voluntarily (and hence no issues with eviction, etc) would keep their place(s) off the market until they had chalked up the 24-month RPZ vacancy threshold.

Good loser · 25-03-2023 1:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395387#Comment_120395387

I disagree. This is the third Eviction Freeze. Who now is even aware of the other two? Banning evictions leads to a dysfunctional housing (rental) market. For a market like the housing market movement and fluidity is of the essence; everybody's housing need is different and the market will function better with continuous opportunities for new and varied tenancies. In my opinion the less the Govt interferes in the market the better. The IRTB is responsible for driving landlords out of the market.

Pete_Cavan · 25-03-2023 7:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120398498#Comment_120398498

That would only make sense if the new rent they could get was more than double the previous rent + the 4% pa allowed increase. Then the landlord would have to forego the cashflow for two years and cover other costs themselves (utility standing charges, heating to avoid deterioration in the property, etc.). Basically only in a tiny number of cases would leaving the place vacant for two years make sense.

Fionn1952 · 25-03-2023 7:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120398686#Comment_120398686

This was my reflexive thought on the topic as well, but pondering it a bit further, perhaps the massive number of AirBnB properties operating out there could be cover for more of this happening than we were both thinking logically makes sense.

Sam Russell · 25-03-2023 10:46am

If the market is to controlled by the RTB, then it needs to be set up so that it can control the market. It needs to be sufficiently resourced both legally and with personnel. Now we are talking about no-fault evictions. Obviously, non-payment of the rent should be followed by eviction within a month or two. [This does not happen currently if reports from landlords are to be believed.]

Does anyone check a property that has had tenants evicted because it is to be sold? Surely this could be controlled by the eviction only being effected after the sale contract has been signed and possibly completed.
Is there any extent that 'refurbishment' must reach before it is essential the tenant has to be evicted? Is painting the bathroom sufficient? Does anyone check?
Pressure zones are designed to stop rents rising, but 4% a year is allowed. Surely, if a landlord can show that the rent is 'well below' the current rent norms then the RTB should have the power to allow a realignment - but this can lead to rent manipulation as happens in the commercial market.
Maybe the RTB should be required to confirm that the requirement for eviction complies with the regulations, and is not against the tenants rights of security of tenure.
RTB is a pussy cat with no teeth, and is a source of complaint to both landlords and tenants. It needs to be able to act quickly for all parties involved in the market.
Airbnb needs to come under RTB control.

An Bord Pleanála was setup to sort out planning and achieved its objectives (but is currently in trouble) and a properly resourced RTB should be able to achieve an orderly rental market.

However the real solution is for local authorities to get back to building 'council houses' like they did in the fifties, sixties and seventies. Approx 30% of the homes need to be social houses (that is subsidised housing) and the current dirth of such housing is the cause of much social problems that are long lasting, and have significant long term social problems - basically poverty and deprivation of a significant proportion of the population.

[Disclaimer: I have been a reluctant landlord for a short time, and have been a tenant for a much longer time and in several different properties and occasions. One landlord failed to repair a leak in the roof that caused mould, but otherwise no trouble as I paid the rent on time, and behaved.]

Water John · 25-03-2023 11:37am

Yes, stopping building social housing and leaving it to the market was the big mistake.

It seems Neassa, so concerned about housing and evictions, used many opportunities to submit letters of concern almost on any brick being laid in her constituency.

Podge_irl · 25-03-2023 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120395387#Comment_120395387

If people don't understand how dysfunctional the rental market is at this stage then they almost certainly haven't had the soul destroying experience of going to view a rental property and seeing 20+ people already there queuing up to give their details to the agent.

An eviction ban rather increases the level of dysfunction though. Its the same as our weird pathology with home repossessions. A properly functioning market will require a certain (ideally small) level of both.

The eviction ban clearly couldn't stay forever - whether or not this was the time to remove it is a trickier question to answer but it was never going to be popular among certain groupings whenever they did it. They could, of course, commit to making the RTB function properly at the same time with a significant increase in its enforcement powers and funding.

Sam Russell · 25-03-2023 1:37pm

I think there has to be an understanding of the difference between the ending of a lease, and an eviction which is the one sided termination of a lease by the landlord.

It appears to be wholly wrong that the landlord can issue an eviction notice with no need to prove the reason, and no possibility of a review on behalf of the tenant - that is just wrong and not just. The landlord being able to 'say' that the property is needed by a family member, or the property is to be sold (perhaps), or some supposed level of refurbishment is to be carried out.

The private rental market is like the wild west.

Sam Russell · 25-03-2023 1:43pm

I wonder if the Labour Party will get a bounce this weekend from the Ard Feis.

PommieBast · 25-03-2023 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120398686#Comment_120398686

You are not quite thinking about it in the same way. If a landlord has already had to swallow most of two years of no rental revenue, then the calculation is about holding out for an extra few months rather than the total revenue loss.

General Irish politics discussion thread

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