NI Dec 22 Assembly Election

@Furze99 "But isn't Allister right in his own way - a fundamental fault line was opened up between relationships on these islands when Brexit was voted in by the UK population as a whole. "

If he is, then surely his argument must be with the British PM and government who have brought about this. Not the non-unionist population of NI. As Nolan pointed out the HOC voted overwhelmingly for this in order to allow the hardest of hard Brexits. But he will blame everyone except those who supported Brexit, including himself

Supremacy? What are you talking about? Again you are demonising unionist politicians by implying they are supporters of Supremacy. Even before the troubles there were plenty of poor protestants who had just the same voting rights, no more and no less, than poor Catholics. In the Border Poll Referendum of 1973 in N.I., every catholic and every protestant had a vote / the option to vote. In the troubles in N.I. extremist republicans first demonised democratic innocent Protestant politicians in N.I. and then murdered them, people like James Stronge MP, Robert Bradford MP, Edgar Graham, John Barnhill etc. I think everyone deserved to live.

The other day you wrote ( and I quote your sentence in full) :"NI was a one party state in the opinion of all but a few ouliers who cannot face the facts. Other examples of one party states are North Korea, Erithrea, China and many of the states that emerged from the Soviet Union break up."

I think accusing politicians on one side only of wanting Supremacy or a one party state (other examples of a one party states you say are North Korea, China etc) are not helpful. Especially when you have never condemned or will not condemn the murder of Unionist politicians in the past.

Nobody is Supreme. Even the churches are equal in my eyes, there is no "one true church" and past supremism like Ne Temere was wrong. And agnostics and atheists are equal too in my eyes.

Your first sentence said Northern Ireland functioned as it was designed to be 'a partitioned statelet with an inbuilt Unionist majority'.

One could also claim Ireland functioned as it was designed to be 'a partitioned statelet with an inbuilt Nationalist majority'.

Even though the minorities grew in N.Ireland and declined in the 26 counties, you could say that for at least some of the 20th century both jurisdictions were cold houses for minorities. Thankfully not now.

You said N. Ireland was a one party state and other one party states were N. Korea etc, so you compared N.Ireland to North Korea. I still think that democracy in these islands is very far ahead of North Korea. May I remind you, as I pointed out before, in North Korea, , there is only one name on the ballot paper. Those who want to vote against the sole candidate on the ballot must go to a special booth—in the presence of an electoral official—to cross out the candidate's name before dropping it into the ballot box—an act which, according to many North Korean defectors, is far too risky to even contemplate. All seats are won by the Democratic Front for the Reunification of Korea. Voting is mandatory and turnout is habitually near 100%. (99.98% in 2019).

When you wrote (and I quote ) " NI was a one party state in the opinion of all but a few ouliers who cannot face the facts. Other examples of one party states are North Korea, Erithrea, China etc", I do not think you realised what sort of a state N. Korea is. You could always say it was a mistake on your part. The MOPEs ( Most Oppressed People Ever ) on N. Ireland are not comparable to the people of North Korea.

You claim Michael Martin says they still attempt to 'deny democracy'. Who is the "they" you talk about? Is it the PIRA who murdered innocent unionist politicians, politicians who believed in the democratic process, like  James Stronge MP, Robert Bradford MP, Edgar Graham, John Barnhill etc? You still have not condemned the murderers of those politicians, or even said such deliberate and pre-meditated murders were wrong.

Poor unionists had the same vote as poor nationalists. In 1973 everyone had a single vote in the border Poll referendum in N. Ireland, it did not matter their religion or politics. The political system was not perfect in N.Ireland, I agree with you until about half a century ago it left a lot to be desired. But the "systems of government" in N.Ireland was still not like North Korea. Most of the elected MPs in N. Ireland were unionists because most of the people in N.Ireland were unionists, but in the UK as a whole ( we know some nationalists were against taking theirs seats in Westminster ) there were many different governments. You are simply trying to rewrite history again. And you still have not condemned the murderers of those innocent politicians, or even said such deliberate and pre-meditated murders were wrong. To this day, if you still condone the murder of politicians with whom you disagree, and you do not agree with your own politicians taking their seats in their national parliament, who are you to complain about the lack of democracy of your political opponents?

When comparing N. Ireland with North Korea, you said "the system of governments = correct." I am just glad you do not live in North Korea.

N. Ireland was - and is - part of the UK. Other parties in N. Ireland did and do contest elections and did and do attract voters, and a reasonable percentage of the overall vote. If other parties were more successful at attracting voters, then the other part or parties would have been bigger. There were other unionist parties and there were nationalist parties, usually getting double digit percentages of the vote each.

In no way was it comparable to North Korea, where there is only one name on the ballot paper, and voting is compulsory. Those who want to vote against the sole candidate on the ballot must go to a special booth—in the presence of an electoral official—to cross out the candidate's name before dropping it into the ballot box—an act which, according to many North Korean defectors, is far too risky to even contemplate. All seats are won by the Democratic Front for the Reunification of Korea. Voting is mandatory and turnout is habitually near 100%. (99.98% in 2019).

You still have not condemned the murderers of politicians in N. Ireland, or even said such deliberate and pre-meditated murders were wrong. Are you going to?

Nobody is claiming the government in N.Ireland was perfect over 50 years ago, but are you not being a bit hypocritical in constantly demonising unionist politicians and going on about lack of democracy in the UK when you have never condemned the murders of unionist politicians? Yes, the forum was searched for your views on violence but you only condemn loyalist / British violence, not Republican violence. One thing for sure though, the system of government was not the same in N.Ireland as in North Korea. To say it was would be an insult, for example, to the 12 catholics in the UDR murdered by Republicans. If it was as bad as you say, none would have joined.

I agree. Minorities on both sides of the border were treated badly by the other side after partition. And this is often forgotten or ignored by those now seeking to impose a UI on the two main cultural traditions on the island. Unionists in NI are right to be suspicious, Home Rule may not be quite Rome Rule these days anymore. For Rome Rule now, you may replace Irish Nationalism Rule. If we want to make progress, there has to be a deal of slaying of sacred cows on both sides.

You may say you condemned the violence, but I seem to remember you saying before that certain activity ( Republican of course ) was war, and was not violence. It was those the British of course who committed the violence.

You wrote:( and I quote your sentence in full) :"NI was a one party state in the opinion of all but a few ouliers who cannot face the facts. Other examples of one party states are North Korea, Erithrea, China and many of the states that emerged from the Soviet Union break up."

You wrote you " compared the system of governments = correct." Now you are claiming you "never said the system of government was ‘the same’." But you are claiming N. Ireland and North Korea had "similar oppressive and discriminatory effects on some of its citizens."

I am not sure if you have ever been to North Korea, or know anything about it. No way was N. Ireland comparable to North Korea, where there is only one name on the ballot paper, and voting is compulsory. Those who want to vote against the sole candidate on the ballot must go to a special booth—in the presence of an electoral official—to cross out the candidate's name before dropping it into the ballot box—an act which, according to many North Korean defectors, is far too risky to even contemplate. All seats are won by the Democratic Front for the Reunification of Korea. Voting is mandatory and turnout is habitually near 100%. (99.98% in 2019).

In the 1973 border poll referendum in N.I, everyone - catholics, unionists, nationalists, protestants, those of any religion and none - had the same vote, and the same opportunity and right to vote.  For you to claim otherwise would be an insult, for example, to the 12 Catholics in the UDR murdered by Republicans. If it was as bad as you say, none would have joined.

It was not a one party state (like the North Korean example you used of a one party state) because there were elections open to other parties. The other parties - nationalist and unionist - got double digit turnout and votes each. And N.I was part of the UK, where various parties were in government over the years. There was also no restrictions on travel. How could that be one party like North Korea? You have lost it, Francie.

I know you complain that N.I. had a unionist majority but the republic had a nationalist majority. You wrote " Northern Ireland functioned as it was designed to be 'a partitioned statelet with an inbuilt Unionist majority'. So what : One could also claim Ireland functioned as it was designed to be 'a partitioned statelet with an inbuilt Nationalist majority'. And as said before even though the minorities grew in N.Ireland and declined in the 26 counties, you could say that for at least some of the 20th century both jurisdictions were cold houses for minorities.

When you wrote ( and I quote your sentence in full) :"NI was a one party state in the opinion of all but a few ouliers who cannot face the facts. Other examples of one party states are North Korea, Erithrea, China and many of the states that emerged from the Soviet Union break up.", were you aware of what North Korea is like? It does not sound as if you have a clue about North Korea, to be honest. Did you know that  in North Korea there is "only one name on the ballot paper, and voting is compulsory. Those who want to vote against the sole candidate on the ballot must go to a special booth—in the presence of an electoral official—to cross out the candidate's name before dropping it into the ballot box—an act which, according to many North Korean defectors, is far too risky to even contemplate. All seats are won by the Democratic Front for the Reunification of Korea. Voting is mandatory and turnout is habitually near 100%. (99.98% in 2019)."?

Democracy in these islands in the 20th century was far from perfect, but it was a hell of a lot better than North Korea, don't you think? Or do you disagree with that too?

You wrote "I compared the system of governments = correct.". The system of government in N. Ireland was never the same as North Korea.  As said before, for you to claim otherwise would be an insult, for example, to the 12 Catholics in the UDR murdered by Republicans. If it was as bad as you say, none would have joined.

I am just glad you never lived or do not live in North Korea. You would remind me of Sean Russell (and his Republican comrades ) saying during the war that Hitler is great and the Nazis are great and down with Britain. No point is continuing this conversation on this thread with you, thank you.

Here is the problem with an act which would impose Irish language signage. This is a little example of what will become a daily battle, driving Irish language further into a sectarian dispute.

I completely disagree with the language used by the councillor on this, but it emphasis the dangers.

I and most people believe there should be opportunities for those interested to learn Irish and it should be an option in school. And she is completely wrong that Protestants should not want Irish. Her attitudes, while wrong, have been cultivated by republicans treatment of Irish.

Now we have money wasted, community tension increased, Irish language tarnished, an Irish sign that may well appear on a bonfire (again wrong) and flags up in March in a quiet little village. Sad really that a SF council is so determined to raise tensions

So, I’m curious. Would you condemn local people removing something that they find offensive that has been erected by those in power?

Do you ever actually answer a question?

But that aside do you not think it would make more sense and encourage an understanding of Irish, to put up a sign with the English translation. I have argued this to my SF council but they don’t want to know, just rather score points.

so the only people who know what Tobermore means are Irish speakers. So the SF councils answer is let’s put up another Irish spelling of it. Can you not see that if they put up a sign with ‘the big well’ or whatever it is, on it, then non Irish speakers would be intrigued and educated and start to see the random word as ‘oh that’s Irish, that’s part of our heritage’.

if you put me in charge of developing a respect for Irish, I would undo the damage republicans have done. It would be simple. But then they wouldn’t be able to wing people up.

You confirm my point. It is already phonetically spelt Irish - and you think I am the problem for suggesting that it would be useful to get it written in a language 99% of ni could understand, prior to getting it repeated in a different form of spelling that it is already in and that a tiny minority speak. Mmmmm!

You are saying it in Irish.

Anybody can research what it means.

But you would rather eat grass than do that and lash out at everyone but the stubbornly prejudiced.

Predictably it's 'my cultural bigotry is somebody else's fault. My insecurity is somebody else's fault etc etc etc.

Time to change the record.

Well I agree and disagree with you there. Firstly there should be consultation, secondly is this Mill Park an 'English' name i.e. was there ever an Irish form of the name that was translated into English? If there was only ever a place called Mill Park, then it should stay as that. Translating that into Irish is a form of cultural arrogance. As a aside, the council should learn to spell - it should read Páirc an Mhuillin if they insist on it.. Thirdly it would be reasonable to put Mill Park in larger letters at top of the sign and if appropriate the Irish version in smaller letting at the base. Not this way, which assumes primacy of Irish by placing it first and more cultural arrogance on display/

However Tobermore is from Tobar Mór and has clearly been anglicised into Tobermore. There is most definitely a case here for an Irish version of Tobermore on a sign, but of less prominence, not out of disrespect for Irish but because the vast majority of local residents would likely know it as Tobermore and use that in their addresses etc. The use of Tobar Mór in this instance on the sign clarifies and adds value to the name.