Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

Thats not a good signing then.

I just watched this game and i haven’t read any comments so could be interesting lol. Munster are an interesting team this year, lots of younger players i find very interesting and older players who i kind of hate, at least vs consensus.

Glasgow way outplayed them and deserved the win. At the same time, i thought the ref was very harsh on lineout throws and in the scrum against munster. None of those penalties were crazy crooked to me and there were a few Glasgow throws that should have been blown under same criteria. In the scrum he seemed to always want to penalize the non put in team. Which hurt munster obv as they constantly knocked it on. Again though, they deserved to lose. So many missed tackles.

Carbery’s decision to throw a terrible pass to coombes in his own 22 when he should have just cleared it down the line was inexcusable. I’m not surprised he got taken off right after. Absolute madness. Killed their momentum.

Guys like kilcoyne, carbery, JOD are often invisible in big games for munster. The sooner they can move on from all three the better.

This year seems like start of a journey for munster. To me they need reinforcements in the front row and centre badly. Some of the front row might be solved by guys just getting older. You’d expect Barron, Buckley, Salanoa, Knox, Wycherly to be better next year. Loughman was pretty good pre injury. At Centre they need like three more guys. Their depth of quality centres is basically one person right now.

Some fixes in those spots, more health in their second row and their young players just getting older… they could be dangerous next year.

I think you need more than 2 pts to be guaranteed. One welsh team gets in automatically, so functionally you need to be 7th or higher.

I think connacht have it in them to get two wins.

Ah my bad, sorry.

Just a number of things that have been apparent for some time (which was further reinforced on Saturday in some cases)

1 Crowley/Carbery- Probably a recent problem as Crowley has really only emerged this year but the persistence with Joey is going back a number of years now. Injuries may have played its part but his confidence is on the floor. He can produce the odd good piece of play in a game but it’s just not enough. He has some very erratic moments and just doesn’t bring enough authority, assertiveness to our team. It’s a pity because he was a very talented youngster when he arrived but it just hasn’t worked out and I feel we are flogging a dead horse at this point. We have a very promising 10 (something we haven’t produced in a long time) and we decide to play him out of position at 12 so “Joey can get his confidence back” or “we have no centres so let’s put them on the field together”. Andy Farrell has got a lot of things right since he took over and unfortunately the same decision should happen at Munster. Crowley at 10 for the rest of the season and let him develop. He will make mistakes due to inexperience but he seems to have that stronger personality we need in a 10. What I don’t understand with this particular conundrum is how come they take Joey off first in every big game and put Crowley to 10? (Leinster, Saints, Glasgow) If they feel Crowley is the stronger player, why don’t they just pick him in his best position from the off? 

2 Front row, where do we begin? An ongoing problem going back to Saracens in 2017 and we are now in an even worse position years later due to DK coming to the end, leaving James Cronin and JR go and not replacing them with the required quality. This is not even mentioning hooker which has been the weakest part of our team for the past 5 years imo. Can anyone remember when was the last signing we have made in the front row? You can’t blame funding or irfu restrictions because other provinces have signed players in this area in that period (alatoaa, Sutherland, kitchoff, Tomaga Allan to name a few of late). We are going to have these conversations at the business end of every year if we don’t find some reinforcements from other provinces or overseas ASAP. Hearing rumours of Shane Delahunt, a Connacht cast off who was on the verge of quitting will he really improve us?

3 Centre options/depth - our starting centres for next year look strong and I can see them combing well with good handling, footwork and power. However, they didn’t come through the system and this ongoing over reliance on signings in the centre since the turn of professionalism has masked a deeper problem with our own development pathways for homegrown players.Watching Cathal Forde, Jennings for Connacht today, Gavin for u20s Connacht are now finding a few gems in midfield. I just can’t fathom how Munster with far superior resources cannot produce a centre of their own for how long now? Again, turning a blind eye to this glaringly obvious problem has left us very thin in midfield hence Crowley into 12 as a square peg round hole situation in the event of an injury. Not only is he not a 12 (using him as a ball carrying option) we could also potentially hinder the long term development of our future 10. Just v poor planning all round leaving us in this situation. 

4 Fans/Former players/media and management overrating middle tier players - This is something that’s holding back Munster from getting to the next level and competing for trophies consistently. We have a group of players aged 25/26 - 30 upwards who are not remotely close to pushing for extended Ireland squads and have passed the “young player with potential” bracket. For whatever reason, we seem to place such a strong importance on these guys as they are the URC leaders, set standards in training, play regularly etc. Nothing against their commitment and dedication to the team but it all points to a drop in standards. This predates rowntree and co but I’m starting to think it’s a systemic problem in the organisation from top to bottom. Experience, Contract seniority level seems to outweigh potential when it comes to selection. Not only are some of these players not good enough to play regularly for Munster, they are also preventing some younger higher potential players get game time. Some of the highest capped Munster players of all time are recent or current players who fall in this middle tier category but never really delivered at the highest level. Two current examples that wouldn’t happen at any other province include the following

JOD capt ahead of Kendellen - Kendellen has had a very disrupted season and I just feel he needs a run of games to get his form back to last year. He often finds himself as the sub backrow, plays at 8 when Coombes is away. He never looks comfortable there as a primary ball carrier so pick him in his best positions 6 or 7. He’s young, he’s raw but he will learn and has potential to be a future Munster capt. JOD is an honest player but he’s an overrated captain that’s lost in this gameplan and his error count is just through the roof. Calls for Ireland were always OTT, andy Farrell knows he’s not at the level required. People will point out JOD and Kendellen are different players but maybe we could explore beirne or Ahern at 6 more often? Considering our front row, we could try and get a dynamic, skillful ball carrying back 5 to compensate. Soroka, a lineout 6 with much higher potential would be a smart signing to replace his role in the team. If not possible, I would also be in favour in promoting the likes of gleeson and Quinn next year at the expense of JOD. 

Fineen Wycherley ahead of EdEd Ahern - Both players are just back from injury but it seems Wycherley is ahead in the pecking order (tonight and end of last season). Again, he has a high work rate and I hear he trains well but he will never be close to Ireland squads. This may sound harsh but I can’t help but feel he wouldn’t be contracted at any other province while we have a player in Ahern who possesses the athleticism we need in the lineout and around the field. 

Long post and I am sure some people have objections to the above but point 3 is something I have felt strongly about for some time. I have nothing against these players as professionals but every high performing organisation needs a ruthless culture to succeed (look at all the turnover in personnel in Connacht). On a very high level, Munster need to seriously review how they look at contract extensions as too many players are passed the development phase and will never be at the required level for us to succeed at the top end of URC, never mind europe.

Watched the game last night and I'm a bit baffled by the focus that Carbery is getting. Before the horrible pass that led to the last Glasgow try, he was fine. I'm not sure there was any single stand out error. His distribution in the first half was quite nice. Mixed it well, got the ball to the outside a few times and his ability to mix the front door/back door option kept Glasgow on their heels in defence at times.

Got bounced once in defence at least but not to a costly degree. I'd have said there were others who looked far more off the pace and provided more costly errors than him....Haley's tackle effort, JOD spilling the ball (along with a rake of other spilling the ball), Daly was chasing shadows in defence including the last try (Coombes and Hodnett didn't cover themselves in glory there either), the set piece woes etc. were all far more influential in the result.

After 30 minutes, it was hard to figure how Munster were actually behind. They had dominated a lot of that opening period and were 14-0 down. I'd think the issue was more mental/concentration than any system issues. But momentum is important and they'll need to turn things around sharpish.

The only real plus here is that the Sharks are in fairly woeful form. 1 win in their last 5 and, even with their stars back, got absolutely nothing from playing the Scarlets. Munster have a great chance of winning that one still.

Perhaps. I suspect that having seen comments from people in advance made me focus on Carbery more in expectation of a really poor game but those errors never really happened before the pass in his 22. I did think Paterson was notably weaker than him and made some sloppy errors. There were 5 or 6 guys who went about their business and generally were ok, I thought. Carbery was in that group along with Kleyn, Coombes, Hodnett and Nash (who was comfortably the most dangeround player in red). I think nearly everyone else was guilty of contributing significant errors in that opening half which is when the damage was done.

Haley epitomises what you describe in your final list. He knows how to defend from 15, he is kind of quick and he has a nice step to beat the first or second tackle when he runs back from deep in space. He has a major drawback in that he offers essentially no playmaking. Overall I'd say he is a bottom half of the URC starting 15 standard. Yet many fans talk about Ireland call ups with him? He rightfully can't get close to an Ireland training squad in what is one of our shallowest positions. I watched the Ulster game after the Munster one and thought the Bulls fullback is kind of typical of what you want from a good club 15, he constantly looked for offloads in the tackle, fit in seamlessly to backline passing moves, was a threat to run the length of the pitch when he broke a tackle and every time a back broke the line he was on their should looking to take the pass and finish the move, he had a couple of errors too but you'd expect that from a good URC level 15 who tries things. Haley is way off that standard, never mind international, I don't think he completed a single pass on Saturday. Zebo, for all the endless stick he takes, immediately improved the backline when he came on. I don't think Daly is any great shake either but he fits the current Munster attack at 15 much better than Haley, for all the talk of Crowley being out of position I thought it was Daly who looked out of place on the wing, to me his best position is clearly fullback.

I think the three games that he missed recently is the best Munster have looked in attack, we averaged 50 points scored per game. If you compare that to the games after the SA match and exclude the more difficult fixtures (Ulster, Leinster and the ERC games) Munster were averaging 30 points pg with Haley starting. He is definitely a better defender than Daly or Campbell or Crowley but what you lose in defence you more than make up for in the overall cohesiveness they bring to the attack. Munsters attack needs someone who can pass at 15, Haley might be better for a tighter game but it would be a travesty to see him started next week against the Sharks.

This is the thing re Carbery, a few weeks ago he was on everyone's list as being on the plane to the RWC, he's exactly the guy you would have greater expectations.

Once again, I'm not laying the blame on him for our performance on Saturday evening.

Excellent post without parsing every single point. Munster definitely have a streak of sticking with players too long instead of cracking on and letting them go. Post was spot on in terms of results for resources available when compared with other teams- Connacht being a good example.

I think that pass and that decision by your veteran 10 in a massive moment is big though. Like, he got subbed right after.

Don't think there's anything illegal about that. The laws specifically say one of the ways a scrum can end is when the number eight picks up the ball from the feet of a second-row player.

Our lineout seems to be very poor at the moment, we don't seem to be able to set up an attacking maul without giving away a penalty. Lineout used to be a core strength of Munster teams. I understand the scrum but surely the technical issues in lineout are fixable