NI Dec 22 Assembly Election

Jaysus Francie, the attitude I portray above is rampant in the south. It's just part of the culture. Frequently on display and read here and many other social media sites. Most obvious of course when the Brits are playing any tournament and we all hope they get thrashed.

I'm surprised at you Francie. Sure at an official level, the glad hand will be proffered and British visitors treated with respect. But there's a deep ingrained resentment as well and it ill behoves you to try and sweep that under the carpet.

Take something like the Famine. I've seen many social media articles that touch on this and the subsequent comments always descend into allegations of genocide and hatred.

Tell me this Furze. Is Tobar Mór and Tobermore pronounced the same? If so, then I would argue that it is not anglicised. It would be a bit like writing Mill Pond in Irish phonetics so as an Irish person who spoke Irish and not English could read it so as when they speak it sounds as mill pond - and then saying that that is if gaelicised. Do you see my point? And is it reasonable?

I get your point ability tobormore, but do you not think it would be much more effective at awakening peoples interest and knowledge of Irish to see ‘the big well’ written as well.

I remember being really interested many years ago the read the translations of all the Mourne mountains in English. I helped me realise the richness of the Irish names. Had someone just instead showed me how the perfect Irish spelling looked it would have been of zero interest to me. I think those promoting Irish are missing a trick.

I wouldnt condemn anyone, but I would question why people would be so offended when their ancestors spoke Irish themselves, prior to the Plantation of Ulster.

Northern Ireland is still Irish.

Be it currently part of the UK or not.

Unionism now sees the Irish language through siege mentality glasses. It's another war that has to be won.

Unionism didn't always have this hate and antipathy towards the native tongue, Carson spoke it and Paisley, Trimble (even) had no problems calling themselves Irish.

As manifested right now, throughout Unionism, 'insecurity' in their own identity is at the root of this.

Of course strategically it cannot be won, dual language signage is going up across the province. They'd have been better off embracing it and the pace would probably have been slower.

You are quite right there downcow. Sinn Fein erecting a sign predominately in Irish ( it is not just the name of the village in Irish, it begins with Failte go...which means welcome to ) in a predominately Protestant village is just the thin edge of the wedge. Continue to resist a UI downcow, because otherwise you and your community will be out. Never underestimate the Republican propaganda machine, and how effective it is in brainwashing people.

Before you know it your kids and grandkids would need Irish to pass their secondary school education and to get in to Irish universities like UCD, UCG, UCC, to to get a government job. It happened here ( south of the border) Your kids and grandkids would find history part of the school curriculum, and be taught all about the famine and to hate the British, and there would be posters of the heroes ( I witnessed the "heroes" of 1916 in my time ie the republican leaders of the 1916 rising - in another generation it would be of Bobby Sands and Co if Sinn Fein get their way. )

So effective is the SF type brainwashing that the ladies Irish National Soccer Team ( not even gaa plays, who are typically more republican ) chanted Uh Ah Up the RA in a football ground in the UK. Imagine the furore if a Saudi Arabian soccer team for example chanted pro Taliban / pro 9/11 bomber slogans in the USA? So effective is the brainwashing some Irish do not even see the harm / insult in the Irish national team chanting Uh Ah Up the RA, and do not see the Le Mons bombing, Bloody Friday bombing and the thousands of other Republican bombings etc for example as the exact same as the 9/11 except perhaps in scale.

I agree with you that it is sad a SF council is so determined to raise tensions.etc

The contrast between the way the two communities dealt with Language Rights could not be greater.

Nobody in Nationalism objected to Ulster Scots legislation passing - indeed nationalist/republican led councils have introduced Ulster Scots legislation and have passed it. Here is the front page of a detailed Derry and Stabane's policy doc. Full doc on their website.

Contrast that with the constant blocking of Agreements - international and local by Unionism, from the DUP leadership right down to local councillors condoning the vandalising of signage.

It was also attributed to Aristotle if you go back far enough, you are correct there. However, in more relatively recent times, it was the founder of the Jesuit Brotherhood who was famous (or infamous) for that saying, which he copied " Give me a child till he is seven years old,’ said St Ignatius Loyola, ‘ and I will show you the man." Google it if you do not believe me.

The Christian Brothers had some "great" sayings that stick out, which they sometimes copied from others but repeated often. I remember another one was " Burn everything British but their coal". As Furse99 correctly pointed out the anti-English / anti protestant brainwashing .."Take something like the Famine. I've seen many social media articles that touch on this and the subsequent comments always descend into allegations of genocide and hatred." he wrote. No wonder only some months ago the ladies Irish national football team, God help them, ended up chanting Up the Ra in Britain, which suffered many bombings at the hands of the RA, not unlike how the US mainland suffered 9/11.

Back to the topic, do you not think Downcow was correct in stating SF should not have raised tensions in the predominately Protestant village by erecting Irish language signage?

Francie, I said it was St Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits who said  Give me a child till he is seven years old, and I will show you the man."

I also said Aristotle probably said it, but lets face it, the influence of someone like Aristotles who was born nearly 400 BC as far as I remember was / is probably much less than the Jesuits / Christian Brothers, who as Furze99 wrote yesterday " It's the reality of it Francie, when you have a large majority on one side who've been brainwashed by a century of 'Christian Brother' history." He clarified "Yes brainwashed with simplistic narrative of history - i.e. Brits/ Prods = Bad and Irish/ Catholic = Good."

Did you not read the links? As the 3 links I provided to you showed, it was the Catholic leader St Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Jesuits, on behalf of the Catholic church, who used the slogan "give me a boy until they are 7 and I will show you the man".

Back to the point about the Irish language signs at the predominately Protestant village: its the thin edge of the wedge if Sinn Fein get their way. As someone else said, if SF get their way fully the Protestants will have to face the choice of moving to Britain or being assimilated into the Irish Republic. If they think Irish signs are bad wait until they have to do compulsory Irish in school, go to certain universities, get a government job etc - as happened here..

Downcow, take no notice of Francie and his casual dismissal of anglicised placenames.

Firstly, the name of any place belongs to the people of that place and what they call it is correct. How they spell it when they give out their postal address is the correct written form.

So whatever way the people who have lived all their lives in Tobermore, say it or write is correct. And should always be respected. Where other versions are give for clarification, they should be by way of explaining the name and of less prominence on public signage.

As for your query on pronunciation, Tobar would normally be said like 'tubber' as in Tubbercurry. So phonetically Tobar Mór would usually be said more like 'Tubber-more' in southern parts of Ireland. But Irish language pronunciation is tricky and there are curious dialect differences in true Ulster Irish. You'd only get these from native speakers though, not the ones who've learnt standard official Irish.

Not Francie here and I dont mean to cause offence to anyone. Apologies If I have downcow.

But I would clearly state that Northern Ireland is both British and Irish & that it was Irish alone a long time before it was ever British.

I am not religious in any way, I have no skin in that game.

Just a simple man that advocates logic.

These signs have been up for years now.

There has been no complaints of anyone either consciously or unconsciously losing their Irish or British identity as a result.

Most people enjoy the diversity and inclusivity they display though.

OWC/our wee country is doing a lot of work there Francis.

Aren't you one who decries the north not moving on and finidng ways to live with one another and to be inclusive?

How much will tagging areas as belonging to the DUP ('in their own area') help with that?

When, for that matter has Protestantism said it cannot have Irish about the place?

It never did, it is bigots who claim that position for Protestantism.