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Random Renewables Thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    With System Information (eirgridgroup.com) you can download any specific day's consumption. So downloading yesterdays (March 26th) day with the last Sunday in March in 2022 gives the following comparison.

    It's a bit rough-n-ready, as it wouldn't take things into consideration if it was a cold day one year verses the other (so more people who have heat pumps/electric fires on), but it's a reasonable match up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,239 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    So for a laugh I went back to 2016/17 and the demand at night seems to be about 700MW lower at 3.30am (~2900MW vs ~3600MW)

    So definitely a difference, but I wonder if that can be explained by EV charging

    700MW is enough to charge 100,000 EVs, so have 100,000 EVs been sold since 2017?

    Short answer, no. 2022 was the best year for EV sales at ~15,000 vehicles. Total sales since 2017 are around 34,000 vehicles


    So it looks like there's a demand side increase, although not nearly enough to explain the price quadrupling. And it's not down to EVs

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭oaklands




  • Registered Users Posts: 65,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Couple of days ago around noon, the Netherlands produced 6GW of wind and 10GW of PV. Total production from renewables 17GW, total consumption 14GW, so the price went negative. People with flexible contracts could charge up their cars and power walls and got paid for doing so.

    The Netherlands is less than half the size of Ireland (26 counties) and PV over there is considerably worse than it is in Ireland. If we had the same PV per sq km, Ireland would produce 25GW from PV alone. Ireland consumes just 5GW

    Solar + wind + battery is all we need



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,299 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    Probably. Used to work in one for years, the amount of power they "waste" is unreal and so are their backup batteries they have as a just in case, and get thrown away without even being used. I won't even go into detail of the diesel gennies which were bigger than a locomotive.

    I told them wtf don't they cover all the roofs of the data centers in PV and they looked at me like I had two heads...



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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    If they plastered the roof in PV, it would only be tip of the iceberg stuff. Maybe you get 1-2Mw from a roof, but these places need like 100x times that.

    The rise and rise of data centres in Ireland (rte.ie)

    That's not to say that they shouldn't, only that it wouldn't be enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭The devils


    We are putting in a ground mount system in work, must check again to see what size..lots of these getting installed across local authority sites



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,239 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    That's a possibility, but I think there's been a pickup generally in industry in the last few years and some of those industries run 24 hours


    So it's probably data centers plus others

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,239 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    One other issue is that they often need power when solar output is low. People tend to watch Netflix or whatever in the evening while doing their boardsing, and those data centers are where those services are being run out of

    But there does need to be a hard look at the environmental impact of them. I was pretty shocked to hear some of them don't even have electricity grid connections and instead generate their own electricity from gas turbines

    Green computing my arse!

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,239 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    We also have a lower population, so much less total generation required

    Yep, we should be the wind generation capitol of Europe

    Instead this is one of the hardest countries to build a turbine in because half the population listens to the tinfoil hat wearing looneys, and we're led by donkeys with their heads up each others a$$es

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    As long as they don't let half the bog slide off the mountain!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,239 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Ugh, yeah fantastic job that one was. Very innovative way to pass the environmental impact assessment is to just not do one (or do it badly, which I think was the case in Derrybrien)

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,239 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    We should probably stop installing wind turbines in bogs, soil which is 75% water isn't known for stability


    I appreciate there's a lot of bogs in Ireland which would otherwise not be used, but there's also a lot of hills and mountains

    I'm not a geologist, but I'm pretty sure mountains are firmer than bogs


    Or just go offshore, not many marshes in the Atlantic 😁

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Most of ours are covered in bog. But built in a way to prevent stuff like that. Heard Donegal is a net exporter of power, so much wind.

    But yeah off shore wind that's the real way to go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Octopus Flux rates in the UK. If only we could get those here, we'd make some serious money with our batteries!

    Even if we were only allowed to export 6kW, but at 3 hours a day that's the guts of €3k income per year. Costs are a bit over half the income in winter and near zero in summer if you have a large PV array



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,239 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Except you'd lose half to tax 😉

    Yeah Octopus have definitely been putting other suppliers to shame in the UK.

    I remember watching an interview with some of the senior staff there and they were saying they developed a lot of their IT systems in-house, while all the other suppliers use the same systems from the likes of Oracle or Salesforce

    Using their own systems allowed them to do some stuff other suppliers couldn't. For example they had this thing called Fan Club where if you lived near a wind turbine they own and the wind is over a certain speed they got a discount on their electricity

    So people would look out their windows and see the turbine spinning quickly and know to run their appliances

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    @the_amazing_raisin - "Except you'd lose half to tax"

    Well that remains to be seen. Th argument could be made that FIT is a discount on your bill. Not income subject to income tax.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭DC999


    It’s like the rest of the business world for any service. The older players that have a captive market don’t need to innovate or delight customers (or deffo not as much). It’s not that many years ago my Mam had never moved electricity suppliers, or not in donkeys years without a major reason. That’s changed as they go to Bonkers every year now, I do it for them.

    So fair play to likes of Octopus for shaking up the market. I expect they have better retention. I change gas and electricity supplier every year now, unless the current one has decent rates and I renew. That churn affects their margins. So if they had a service / more benefits / stuff others can’t provide, that entices people to stay…



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,115 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Its not much of an argument though. What happens when you export more than you import... which people would do if they were allowed.... is it income then?

    The reality is that its income today, it doesn't remain to be seen.

    Revenue have already ruled on it by simply saying they allow an exemption up to €200, after that they want their pound of flesh. You can make whatever arguments you like, revenue dont tend to debate whether you owe them money or not particularly when they have already put it into law! 😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    You'd not want to have negative bills for a start 😂

    And not everything revenue "says" stands up to scrutiny. The law is an ass sometimes and we need to fight it. Like that lady who plastered her house with PV panels without planning permission for it, but she won in the end doing us all a big favour. I'm sure we'll all be following this closely. I have no intention of paying any income tax on FIT. If that means I can't export more than €200 worth of FIT, so be it. I'll use the electricity myself. Even though this is the complete opposite of what the government should encourage (in the tax payers' interest) about micro generation.

    As usual this was an ill thought out plan. Made by a begrudger, not someone with vision. Why the hell didn't the government look at other more advanced countries like the Netherlands, Germany, or even the good old UK, where FIT / net metering on private dwellings is not subject to income tax? 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,115 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    You'd not want to have negative bills for a start

    But that’s the point that was being made, wasn’t it. €3k income. It’s either income or it isn’t.

    And not everything revenue "says" stands up to scrutiny.

    You could certainly challenge it. It would take a court case though. I’d be betting on you losing though. This isn’t a grey area like, for instance, OMSP car VRT values that you can appeal. They have been explicit in their view of domestic micro generation. It’s income .

    Even though this is the complete opposite of what the government should encourage (in the tax payers' interest)

    100%

    There should be no tax on domestic generation. At the very least they need to increase their exemption limit to several multiples of what it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Indeed. The cheapest way for the government to increase renewables is to nudge private home owners into plastering their roofs with PV. Costing the tax payer not a cent (provided the silly subsidies are removed)

    The Netherlands generating 10GW of PV, in March, mostly from residential. That's twice what Ireland uses in total electricity consumption at any one time. From a country less than half the size of Ireland with far worse PV than here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,239 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Tell you what, you try that argument and let me know how it goes 😜

    Fight the power! 😉

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,903 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    The easiest fight is to not fight at all. Say nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭DC999


    Interesting article from impartial UK source. Says is if electricity stays within 2.5 times the cost of gas, then heat pumps cost the same as gas over their lifetime (supply & fit, maintenance, and yearly heating costs). I learned some stuff on why electricity cost more than gas. Part is that gas generates a lot of electricity - makes sense, I just never coped it before. UK centric but close to here.

    https://www.nesta.org.uk/blog/the-electricity-to-gas-price-ratio-explained-how-a-green-ratio-would-make-bills-cheaper-and-greener/

    By the by, Nesta are a UK based ‘innovation agency for social good’. Their stuff seems well thought out. Very much covers pros and cons. Not just ‘everyone adopt heatpumps’ – they call out the warts and all. So right design, right install (to match the design), right insulation. They are independent in their views. Have a newsletter you can sign up for. One of their goals = "to reduce household emissions by 30% from 2019 levels by 2030"

    The also did some in-depth stuff on numbers of heat pumps by geographical region. And barriers to getting them rolled out. Their site is worth a read. This has the heat pmup, home energy reduction stuff. A sustainable future | Nesta

    Disclaimer, I don’t have a heat pump in our small leaky 80yr old house. Would love one in a parallel universe in an A or B rated house. 



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,317 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Aye if a heat pump is cheaper to run than gas depends entirely on the gas vs electricity price (even though they are 2-3 times more efficient per kWh used). I would imagine that over the coming 10-15 years, there will be ever increasing duty / tax on gas to nudge us away from burning fossil fuels and towards renewables. Whereas more and more of us make our own electricity and while we as a nation as a whole produce more renewable electricity, there will be plenty of times where wholesale electricity prices will be super cheap

    So on the balance of probabilities, it is likely that heat pump heating will be considerably cheaper than fossil fuel heating...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭DC999


    We haven't use the gas boiler in the last month now it's milder. Was same to the end of Oct before it got colder. 2 electric rads on a thermostat are perfect. Keeps downstairs at perfect temp. Hall stays cold, which is fine. So while it's dearer per unit than gas, those rads are more efficient than our 15 year old boiler. As in it's not costing us X times more like it looks like on paper.

    I've learned a lot this 1st winter with solar and trying stuff out. A 1-2kW electric heater has heated the sitting room / kitchen pretty much all winter. It struggled when it was baltic in Dec and needed the gas boiler to 'boost' the room. It couldn't get the room temp to climb but could hold it once it was there. Gas came on for ~3 hours a day (1 in morning, when kids got home, before bed). So sizing wise 2-3kW of a unit would heat that space easy. As low as 500w worked until some time in Oct. That messing around will help me see what sizing we need when our old boiler dies. Most are likely over-sized.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    Crypto miners, normally the bane of every environmentalist (often with good reason) are actually a very good way to heat a room. I've a 3090 GPU in my main work machine (I'm a software developer btw) and that draws down about 220 watts when it's mining. Working at home in a converted "box bedroom" it can keep the room warm and on many a day I never have to turn on the main heating in the house. Thus saving me from burning fossil fuel.

    it's not responsive though as you can imagine. 220 watts doesn't bring the temp of the room up quickly, but once it gets to 20-21C or so, it can keep it there relatively well. Occasionally I have to stop it mining, but it works well.

    Same thing with those dehumidifiers, which also rock in about 150-200 watts. It will take awhile but it will bring a averaged size room up about 4-5 c in 90 minutes or so. On some of the cold mornings I'd kick in the normal radiator which has a Tado automated value on it set to 19C to get the room up to temp, and then the mining would keep it there for the day.

    Like you these electric heaters struggle on the baltic days, but on your mild/cold days a bit of "targeted heat" works well.



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