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Barbie Kardashian is in a women's prison. Taoiseach's response to questions on this are here..

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭crusd


    Laws cannot legislate for the extreme cases. To do so would result in a police state.

    Take child protection laws for sports clubs as a example. They have garda vetting. This only flags up people who have already been identified as a concern and does not in any way stop a predator who has not come to the attention of the guards from getting involved in sport. The only way to stop that from happening is to stop adults from getting involved completely, destroying opportunities for children to get involved in sport. Do you treat someone who puts themselves forward to get involved in coaching children with the same suspicion as you do someone looking for gender recognition?

    Separately, my personal opinion is that someone seeking to change their stated gender should seek guidance in making that decision, but that does not mean that increased suspicion should automatically be assigned to someone who is seeking to change gender.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    If somebody self-indentifies as a woman, regardless of any other variables, then I will consider them a woman. Similarly, if someone would rather call themselves "Johnny" instead of "John" or "Barbie" instead of "Gabrielle" then I will call them by their preferred name.

    That is not, in my view, any kind of endorsement of violent behaviour or any immoral/unethical behaviour even if someone is willing to twist it as such.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Was that so difficult,see no need to rhyme off female serial killers or pedophiles as replies , trying to wind up people that's what that's all about and we don't need experts to tell us otherwise,

    This a part of the problem so called activists abusing the discussion and throwing names and labels at people just to try shut down any discussion, because you can only see and hear your own opinion, no matter how wrong you are ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Thread about violent psychopathic... woman is not relevant to a thread about a violent psychopathic...woman?

    I reckon we're going to need to build more prisons for ....women



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭crusd


    A minority of men have committed sexual assaults and rape while under the influence of alcohol, but at order of magnitude higher levels than transwomen. Lets ban all men from drinking so we can safegaurd women. Would definitely prevent far more potential assaults for one thing



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,860 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    OK so now we are getting somewhere in regards Child protection laws.

    You need to be garda vetted to be involved with kids in sport.

    To get access to women's spaces you do not need to be vetted at all.

    This man is allowed in women's safe spaces despite having a history of violence towards women.

    All he had to do was sign a piece of paper to get access.

    In the case of Larry Murphy, he could rock up tomorrow and get access to women's spaces despite everyone knowing what he is.

    Do you think processes should be put in place to filter out predators?

    Or do you think the current law which would freely allows a known predator into women's safe spaces is acceptable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    I think you're a little bit confused, I wasn't trying to wind up anyone I was responding to someone comparing BK "as a woman" to everyone's mother.

    It's misleading to make a comparison with BK to the reader's beloved, bread baking mother when some ciswomen, such as Wournos and Hindley, are also capable of extreme violence.

    My point being that violence is not exclusive to any gender/sex/whatever and when you facetiously say "BK is a woman just like your mother" you are insinuating that ciswomen are not capable of violence, like Mammy.

    It's dishonest for people to say things along the lines of "BK is not a women because real women are not violent" (which was the implication by evoking rosy cheeked Mammy) and then cry "that's irrelevant, brother" and then do the cupped ear-to-the-roar-of-the-crowd thing when you point out examples of violent ciswomen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭JohnnyFortune




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭crusd


    1. Children cannot be trusted look after themselves and avoid a potentially dangerous situation. But even then garda vetting only filters known predators. Are you saying adult females should be treated like children?
    2. GRC is not about access. "safe spaces" is a red herring. Access to a changing room or other space is entirely at the discretion of the operator of a venue.
    3. This man is in solitary confinement
    4. As above
    5. See number 2
    6. Before I answer, do you think processes should be put in place for other environments where adults interact or is it just for trans?
    7. See number 2.

    All a GRC does is give a piece a paper that recognises a choice, that is all. Someone who does not have a GRC could still present as a woman in a females "safe space" and gain access without a GRC. And if told the were being excluded on the grounds of gender could bring a case. And if Larry Murphy, seen as you a keen to use him as an example, turned up in the female changing room of the local swimming pool with a GRC the management are perfectly entitled to ask them to leave on the ground of the safety of other patrons or at the request of other patrons who fear for their own safety.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Any woman is capable of being violent,not just Being violent but extremely violent, mammies included some of the most violent people I know are in fact mothers ,

    There goes that argument, just as much as saying your violent man ,but if you suddenly self identify as woman they suddenly become gentile and submissive to men,



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,117 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭crusd


    The term ciswomen or cismen should not be recognised as a thing outside of academic discourse. You are potentially labelling someone with an identity they have not chosen against their wishes. And actually some lesbian and gay people see the use of the term as artificially conflating their identity with that of heterosexuals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭Demonique


    Rapists should be kept in solitary confinement or only in units with other rapists



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    Interesting, I haven't thought of it that way. Thanks for letting me know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭crusd


    Why can someone only answer yes or no and not expand on the answer? Pure demands for yes or no questions are designed as a weak form of "gotcha" to the exclusion of context.

    Convicted male sex offenders are incarcerated in mens prison, but are often located in sex offender wings - eg. separate from the main population, as has also been done with this individual, except in a different prison. The real solution here is co-location of prisons. A potentially violent trans individual in prison who is genuine and not looking to game the system may still require prison officers used to dealing with individuals of higher physical strength.

    Now, have men been sexually assaulted in prison by violet sex offenders?

    Have women been sexually assaulted by women in prison? Yes or no with context please



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,496 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    Then you are endorsing a fallacy, a falsehood, or else you are indulging a mental illness.

    If somebody who is a man (like Eddie Izzard) self-identifies as a woman, even though he is not a woman, then by going along with it, you are implicitly or explicitly supporting a falsehood.

    You may be doing it out of politeness, or with the best of intentions, or you may be compelled by an employer or the law.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,117 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    So, there's a difference then and therefore no point in conflating crimes committed by BK and where they're imprisoned with men.

    It's very well known that both men and women have been both the perpetrators and victims of crime in prison, if you want the statistics for that, including sexual assaults specifically, you're free to look it up. That has nothing to do with the concerns about BK being in a women's prison.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,228 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    What concerns? She will spend her time in solitary confinement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Yes women have been raped in prison by transgender women,

    There was a recent public case involving a us prisoner fathering a child behind bars while facing other charges of rape against other female prisoners,

    There was a case in the UK too involving a trans sex offender sexually assaulting other prisoners and female guards



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭sonar44



    Have you ever had to 'consider' if an actual woman was a woman?

    It's not a trick question, I think the cognitive overhead alone associated with your approach is quite unnatural and indicative of the core problem.

    It's just a discussion. Something more important is bound to come along.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭crusd


    You did of course know what I meant - have women been sexually assaulted in women by biological women?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭crusd


    The concern of course is that Larry Murphy is going to turn up at the local swimming pool with a GRC and be permitted to do as he pleases



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,228 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I would be infinitely more concerned about the likes of him buying a car, then some nonsense about trans rapists hiding in the laundry basket.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I'm sure they have, it's well documented it happens in male and female prisoner's being forced into sexual relationships in return for protection or to pay off a debt



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭sonar44


    Would you be surprised to learn that some trans activists might consider you a transphobe for this?

    By their definition, a woman is anyone who believes they are a woman and assuming someone is or isn’t, is bigotry.

    It's just a discussion. Something more important is bound to come along.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    Well that goes back to my comment about metaphysics earlier.

    If a transwoman is offended because, only in my own head, I assume that they are a woman then I hope that they can find it in their heart somehow to forgive me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭sonar44



    I'm not sure a transwoman would be offended that you considered them a woman. The issue arises when you don't and that applies to those just playing along.

    It's just a discussion. Something more important is bound to come along.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,083 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    If a transwoman is offended because, only in my own head, I assume that they are not a woman then I hope that they can find it in their heart somehow to forgive me.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭donaghs


    It looks there's a tacit acceptance in the UK that violent "trans women" shouldn't be in "women's prisons".

    Zara Jade jailed after stabbing and tying up victim in Halifax - BBC News

    (a trans woman attacks another transwoman housemate. The pronouns make it harder to get the truth of the biological sex of the people. The offender Zara has a history of rape and sexual offences. I think, looking at other websites, these were aimed at biological women, but its hard to get the truth from the pronoun verbiage).

    The Irish governmnent is still holding firm on keeping violent trans women in women's prisons. Making promises about safe segregation etc. Interesting, seems the ideology/guidance is more powerful than the public outrage.



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