Suing your Property Management company

Long Sean Silver · 31-03-2023 10:49pm #1

Not sure if this topic has been covered before. Apologies if so...

I am the owner of an apartment in a block of apartments. As is the norm, a property management company has been contracted to manage the day to day running of the block. A leaking roof has been reported over 2 years ago, but to date nothing has been done and the roof continues to leak, resulting in ongoing damage to the apartment and it's inhabitant's property. Repeated attempts have been made to work with the Management company, but to no avail. Emails and phone calls are ignored. Little or no attempt has been made to fix the leak.

Am I within my rights to sue the Management company for negligence and/or failure to fulfil their contractual obligations? Would this be the best course of action having exhausted all others? What damages if any am I likely to get?

Geuze · 01-04-2023 12:01am

You are a member of the OMC.

Would it not be the OMC who should chase up the managing agent for not doing work?

L1011 · 01-04-2023 12:40am

As a member of the OMC, I believe you cannot sue it as you cannot sue yourself.

The OMC can take actions against its management agent, however.

You need to sepearate/clarify who you were talking to here, the management agent (who is contracted by the OMC) or somoene involved with the OMC?

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 12:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426049#Comment_120426049

Yes we (the Owners Mgt Company) have tried repeatedly to chase up the Property Management company/Agent without success.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 12:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426078#Comment_120426078

I am talking about the Property Management Company/Agents appointed by the Owners. They the agents have been appointed/contracted to carry out repairs and look after the day to day management of the block.

AndrewJRenko · 01-04-2023 3:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426088#Comment_120426088

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426090#Comment_120426090

First step would be for the owners to change the Managing Agents, give the contract to a different agent.

markpb · 01-04-2023 7:19am

There are three relevant parties here: the owners, the board of directors (who are also owners) and the agents (who are appointed by the board of directors). You need to determine who isn’t doing the repair work. If it’s the agent, then the best course of action is for the board to fire them and hire a new agent. If it’s the board, the best thing is to call an EGM and find out why or replace the board. It’s possible that there’s a reason the work hasn’t been done (lack of funds) but this doesn’t explain the lack of communication with the affected owners.

01-04-2023 11:59am

I own my apartment plus another in a different area, and there are annual OMC meetings, which in my experience are always attended by at least one person from the property management agency. I presume you have brought this issue up at these meetings, and what has been the response?

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427147#Comment_120427147

Yes I attended the AGM. The issues was discussed and the Board of Directors of the OMC and the representative of the Managing Agents all resolved to survey the roof, get an estimate for works required, and then proceed to repair the roof.

My problem is that was 3 months ago, and despite repeated attempts to move things forward, nothing has been done. It is almost impossible to speak to someone, they rarely/never return phone calls or emails. All I am getting is empty promises with no action.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426302#Comment_120426302

No question the Property Managing Agents are the ones who have dropped the ball on this. From my experience they are about as much use a an ashtray on a motorbike.

When it comes to planting a few flowers, or sending a circular about bikes parked in the hallway they are great. But ask them to carryout some urgent repairs to the fabric of the building and they go missing.

I know there is a regulatory body called the Property Services Regulatory Authority, based in Meath. Do you think I should report this issue to them? or a least threaten the Agents with this?

Count Dracula · 01-04-2023 1:45pm

Highly unlikely to get it fixed whining on about it here?

i am astonished that no action has been taken in 2 years, what are you up to?

AndrewJRenko · 01-04-2023 2:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427698#Comment_120427698

Have you spoken to the Directors of the management company, your fellow owners, about the lack of progress?

markpb · 01-04-2023 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427698#Comment_120427698

Owners can’t request the MA to do any work that requires spending money, only the directors can do that. You need to get to the bottom of why the work isn’t being done. It’s possible that the directors don’t believe it’s the OMC responsibility, that they’re waiting for the OMC insurance to process the claim, that there isn’t enough money to pay for it or it’s possible that the MA aren’t bothered. I suspect it’s unlikely to be the last one. You need to find out what’s going on before you assume it’s the MAs fault. The regulator will probably tell you the same thing.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427879#Comment_120427879

Yes one of the Directors has been most helpful and pursued the MAs on my behalf. She too has run up against a wall of excuses, inaction and silence.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428105#Comment_120428105

The Directors are aware it's their responsibility and have tried to pursue the matter with the MAs, but have gotten nowhere. I know there is a sinking fund to cover these maintenance issues, but for some reason the MAs seem reluctant to spend it !??

Count Dracula · 01-04-2023 4:04pm

As a member and co-owner of the management company op, it is actually your responsibility to follow this shambles up.

Get the finger out pal, that roof must be stinking something fierce?

micosoft · 01-04-2023 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428238#Comment_120428238

Andrew is volunteering his time. If you feel so strongly stand for the board of directors and then move to persuade the other directors to remove the existing agent for a new one on the basis of lack of responsiveness. I had to do this to remove the agent appointed by the builders. I suspect you aren't keen on doing that hard work though are you? Shouting about suing people is unhelpful and as ever I suspect there is much more to the story here. Have you bothered (and I'll assume not) look at the accounts? Do you know how large the sinking fund is? How many neighbours (you?) have not paid their dues? etc etc. The agent can't spend money that's not in the management company can they?

minimary · 01-04-2023 4:16pm

@Long Sean Silver I own a flat in a complex thats rented out to students.

Back before they started doing electronic transfers, I misplaced one of the cheques they sent me. When I went to do my yearly accounts I discovered it but by then the cheque was out of date.

It was entirely my fault that that happened. I contacted the property managers, apologised and asked that the cheque be reissued, chatting to a lovely woman, no problem, she would reissue it. It never arrived so I contacted them again and the woman I had talked to had left the company but a colleague had taken over her workload. For 2 years he kept telling me the cheque was coming, I contacted him every few months about it by email it never arrived.

I was at the end of my tether and I made a complaint to the PSRA, the owner of the property management company rang me the next day, apologised and offered me the money I was owed and compensation to withdraw my complaint to the PSRA.

I would start with the PSRA rather than going down the solicitor route. It sounds like you've made a good faith effort to contact them. I assume you're paying them handsomely for their services

AndrewJRenko · 01-04-2023 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428238#Comment_120428238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428250#Comment_120428250

The question goes back to the Directors so, as to what they’re going to do about the non-performing agents.

goingnowhere · 01-04-2023 4:30pm

The MA's contract is unlikely to cover supporting the management of major structural works...

The MA is instructed by the directors, if they are unable or unwilling its up the directors to acknowledge they are responsible per the companies act and it get on with it

Solution is simple enough

Get an engineers out to inspect
What is the status of the block, is the developer still on the scene?
Dose the 6 year statue of limitation apply to the roof?
Is this just general wear and tear, storm damage or poor workmanship
The engineers report will advise on what needs to be done
Get 3 quotes
Call EGM to approve and seek sinking fund contribution

apache · 01-04-2023 4:30pm

My management fees went up by €500 this year. Shocker. They are over the 2000 mark now.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 4:59pm

I would like to thank everyone who contributed, the overwhelming majority of which were helpful and constructive.

The OMC Directors have done everything possible to resolve the issue, but the MAs are being totally uncooperative. We have detailed records of all communication to them, photos of the leakage, damage to property etc. Something's not right, either the money is not there (although the Accounts seem to indicate it is), or it has been mismanaged in some way. Why else would they be so reluctant to utilise it? The MAs are contractually obliged to maintain the property, and use the sinking fund as needs require.

I will report them to the PSMA, who hopefully can carryout an investigation. Failing that I will pursue them under the MUD Act 2011 and seek compensation for negligence and failure to act to maintain the property.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428349#Comment_120428349

A leaking roof is hardly a major structural task. The MAs are contractually obliged to maintain the property. They cannot just refuse having entered into a contract to do so. If they do, then they can be pursued and compensation sought.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428490#Comment_120428490

most can now be convened via zoom from the comfort of your armchair.

01-04-2023 6:42pm

As a former Director of an OMC, I can only give you an account of my own experience in situations like yours op.

MA’s are overpaid for what they do and are slow to act unless pushed by the Directors.

The main reason for delays in building works is due to two reasons, difficulty in getting builders to do jobs, and lack of funds due to members not paying their subs. I suspect the former is an issue at the moment, getting a roofer is nigh on impossible.

But suing the OMC is not an option as you are effectively suing yourself and will make you about as popular as a fart in a car.

Del2005 · 01-04-2023 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428460#Comment_120428460

Why haven't the directors changed the MA if they aren't responding to them? You've had 2 AGMs since the roof started leaking and no one has proposed replacing a company that you are paying money to who aren't doing what they are paid to do.

01-04-2023 7:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428859#Comment_120428859

The op needs to establish the circumstances under which the MA aren’t doing what they are paid to do, is it that they can’t get a roofing contractor to do it, or the money isn’t there to do it.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 7:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428582#Comment_120428582

i am

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 7:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428814#Comment_120428814

only i do not propose suing the OMC. i intend to sue the MA (who are a different legal entity) for failure to maintain the property as contracted to do.

i do take your point though that finding a competent roofer is very difficult atm.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428896#Comment_120428896

one of the reasons they've given is the difficulty in finding a roofer. but 2 years to find a competent roofer seems like an excuse to me, not a reason.

AndrewJRenko · 01-04-2023 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428966#Comment_120428966

You have no relationship with the MA to sue them. You have a relationship with the OMC, and the OMC has a relationship with the MA. You need to establish why the OMC isn’t taking action against the MA, whether sueing the MA or replacing them as MA.

The MA wouldn’t have access to the funds of the OMC , unless the OMC has explicitly allocated funds for this work.

01-04-2023 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428966#Comment_120428966

It’s not your roof, you aren’t the sole owner.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429048#Comment_120429048

no but the leak is damaging my property, so as the "injured party" am i not within my rights to pursue the MAs who have neglected to maintain it?

indeed all owners are "injured parties" as their properties and their values are being adversely affected by a leaking roof. would you buy into an apartment block and pay full market price, where you knew there to be a badly leaking roof?

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 8:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428996#Comment_120428996

well the OMC of which i am a member may well pursue the MAs.

if we replace them then they have effectively been let off the hook, and we the OMC will have to start the whole process all over. Why should we, when in good faith we the OMC contracted them to maintain the property, and which by entering into that contract they agreed to do so.

let's not forget they have been paid to maintain a property, but have clearly failed to do so.

01-04-2023 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429088#Comment_120429088

The MAs work for the OMC. Your argument is therefore with the OMC, which you are a member of.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429128#Comment_120429128

well that is a moot point.

i am of the understanding that if you contract someone (and pay them!) to carryout a service/job and the fail to do so, then you have legal recourse. the MA has been contracted (and PAID) by the OMC to do a job. they have FAILED to fulfil their side of the bargain.

01-04-2023 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429174#Comment_120429174

But you personally are not contracting the MA, the OMC are. You’re grip is with the OMC, of which you are a member, the MA works for the OMC. The MA has no obligation to an individual owner, they have a contract with the OMC which is a separate entity.

Long Sean Silver · 01-04-2023 11:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429244#Comment_120429244

ok so assume i am a Director of the OMC. what then?

02-04-2023 6:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429680#Comment_120429680

Then you get together with the other Directors, find out why the MA hasn’t gotten a roofer to fix the roof, and sack the MA if they aren’t doing their job.

But as a Director, you would not have a contract personally with the MA, the MA is employed by the OMC, of which you are a Director.

Op, start with a registered letter to the OMC board of Directors demanding to know why the roof hasn’t been fixed. The damage to your property should be a matter of you claiming off the insurance which the OMC would have for the building, demand the details of the insurer from the Board.

markpb · 02-04-2023 6:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429174#Comment_120429174

Have you read the contract between OMC and MA? Any of mine didn’t hand over control or responsibility to the MA beyond routine, budgeted expenses. When we had issues like yours, the board and the MA would work together to get them fixed but the MA want expected (contractually) to do it themselves, especially if it requires spending a lot of money.

02-04-2023 6:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430022#Comment_120430022

The MA are usually the ones who get the quotes from builders, but yes, you are correct, it is the OMC Board who give the go ahead. As I said earlier, I suspect this is a case of either the money isn’t there, or they can’t get a builder to do it, either way, the OMC should inform the op as to the reason for the delay.

Del2005 · 02-04-2023 8:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429174#Comment_120429174

You only have recourse if they do something incorrectly, ie they hire someone to fix the roof and it's not fixed. If they don't do their job then your recourse is to fire them and hire someone who will do their job.

With the current state of trades I can well believe that they can't get a roofer. They have their choice of work so can pick their jobs, if your roof is a small and/or awkward job they won't be interested.

But you need to chase the directors of your OMC because it is their job to maintain your complex and they aren't doing that. You need to go to the AGM and make repairing the roof an item on the agenda. You might have to become a director though.

AndrewJRenko · 02-04-2023 8:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429105#Comment_120429105

You don’t know exactly what the MA have been contracted to do, until you’ve seen the actual contract.

Long Sean Silver · 02-04-2023 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430340#Comment_120430340

Hi Andrew

It is my understanding they are contracted to do these repairs, as it was discussed and agreed with them that they would do so, at the last AGM. I haven't actually seen the contract, no.

Also the funds are available to my knowledge.

Long Sean Silver · 02-04-2023 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430277#Comment_120430277

Thanks Del2005. They the MAs did get their handyman to try and fix it last year, on a few occasions, but clearly he did not do a proper job as the leak reoccurred within weeks of his "repairs". My understanding is getting a professional roofer is proving difficult.

A fellow neighbour who is a DIRECTOR of the OMC has tried on numerous occasions to contact the MA to move things along, but he seems impossible to get hold of. The MA never gets back to emails, doesn't answer phone calls/return messages, and on those rare occasions (2 in all) when he does respond, all the OMC director has got is empty promises/assurances.

It seems the OMC are doing their bit, the money is there in the sinking fund, the proposed work was agreed at the AGM, the MAs are contracted to carry it out, but the MA are unable/unwilling to get the repair done!

Any suggestions?

02-04-2023 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430673#Comment_120430673

They are not contracted to do the repairs, they may be contracted to find the people to do the repairs, the Board then signs off on it and pays the roofer.

I think you might be under the misapprehension that this would be included in the fee paid to the MA by the OMC and that they are responsible for the repair, they aren’t, the OMC (ie you) are. You elect the Board to look after these matters on your behalf.

Long Sean Silver · 02-04-2023 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430022#Comment_120430022

well the repairs were discussed at the last AGM, and it was agreed by all(OMC & MA) that quotes for the work should be sought, and the repairs should be done.

02-04-2023 11:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430740#Comment_120430740

Yes, the MA gets the quotes, gives them to the Board, they agree to the fee and engage the roofer to fix the roof. That is how it works.

Do you actually know if the MA has sought quotes from roofers?

Long Sean Silver · 02-04-2023 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430749#Comment_120430749

i understand the MA has tried 2 roofing firms, but because he(the MA) is impossible to get hold of, i cannot say what if any quotes he has actually got.

02-04-2023 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430752#Comment_120430752

Sean, that’s a pretty important piece of information, and begs the question, on what basis are you considering suing the MA if you know that they are indeed seeking quotes from roofers? The MA can’t make roofers give quotes, and if they have forwarded quotes to the Board, they are the people you should be contacting.

Long Sean Silver · 02-04-2023 11:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430761#Comment_120430761

ok Dave. trust me i really do not want to sue anyone. the only winners in court tend to be the guys in funny wigs. i would much rather get the repairs done and focus on other more enjoyable matters.

my understanding is they may have tried to get quotes and have a survey done, but to my knowledge i do not believe they have been successful. i mean how long should that take? the roof is leaking for 2 years now.

Suing your Property Management company

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