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The eviction ban

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭howiya


    Yep should never have been brought it. Government should govern instead of trying to outdo the opposition. Governing requires hard decisions. They tell us they made the hard decision last week when not extending it but the time for the hard decision was last autumn.

    But being where we are they've also managed to handle the unwinding of the ban badly. Eamon Ryan having to clarify his remarks yesterday to confirm that the safety net they've been discussing in the media hasn't been legislated for yet.

    If you're going to kick the can down the road, maybe pass the legislation before you get to the end of the road.

    And then there's doubts over whether any of these safety net measures will actually work.

    It's been a serious own goal that ultimately has consequences way beyond politics. The rental market is screwed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 922 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Good article on RTE about the consequences of the reintroduction of no fault evictions:




  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭DRedSky


    FG/ff have destroyed the Irish property market.

    absolutely destroyed it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The rental market, and only for some renters.

    The overall property market is ticking along nicely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,835 ✭✭✭Allinall


    That’s been the situation for the last 100 years.

    Hard cases make bad laws.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fianna Fáil destroyed the country over 10 year’s ago & were brought back in 3 years ago.

    look at the damage they’ve done again, greed greed greed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,978 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    No not everyone can. But there is a cohort in Dublin that could. If I was in that cohort and renting in Dublin I seriously look at moving out of Dublin. There is a substantial number of semi derelict properties outside of Dublin that can be bought reasonably enough.

    There is substantial grants to do them up. For fairly small properties( two bed townhouses) you would refurbish them completely between the grant and the energy upgrade grant.

    Explain to me the solutions you think should be put in place to resolve the situation

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Yes there was. My brother in law bought his house in the 80's and that was on a factory wage. My father bought their house in the 70's on his average industrial wage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    The eviction ban was a bad mistake as it distorted the rental market. All these populist policies mistake the will for the deed. I do suspect that the hand wringing opposition politicians would prefer to make the situation worse for people rather than better- the worst kind of profiteering.

    People using DAFT stats on lack of rental properties available are missing the point that the eviction ban has taken property out of circulation. The houses haven't been knocked down they are just not being advertised. Rent control has a long history of doing the same. In my area (small to moderate sized town), local landlords are renting quietly to people they know, and staying away from advertising to the higher risk tenants.

    Yesterday was a good day for people looking to rent a house.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 922 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Solutions need to focussed on increasing the numbers of units overall for all types of housing provision: private renting, social housing, outright purchasing etc. Various means of doing that have been discussed here and examples exist of countries that have suffered much worse shortages (e.g. after bombing) and have solved the problem.

    After increasing the supply the next priority needs to be the quality of rentals on offer. Unlike perhaps a lot of people here, I think that there should be options to rent a house with some degree of security. That you as a tenant should have a reasonable expectation of security for the duration of the contract provided you fulfill your side of the bargain. This means that the landlord has to treat being a landlord as a professional business rather than having multiple homes that also generate a bit of income when not in use. Again, there are international examples where this is the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,909 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...its a lot more complicated than just pure greed, this is ideological collapse, and parties such as ff are simply unwilling to accept it, its rather disturbing to see such a large group, of well educated, yet deeply misinformed people, maintaining pursuit of such beliefs....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,978 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Dublin wages always tended to be above national averages. Traditionally a Garda, nurse or most public servants earned substantially above other parts of the country.

    This even happened in the private sector. While you BIL and Father may have seemed to have average jobs the wages were probably higher than the national average

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    That may be the case. But it's simply not true that a person on the AIW couldn't buy a house in decades past. This idea that a modest gaff should cost half a mil and hock you into debt until you're an OAP is a relatively new situation brought about over the last couple of decades by chronic mishandling by laissez faire governmental "management" and we need to stop trying to normalise that particular state of affairs.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I agree with ya that’s defo something that should be encouraged. Don’t think it’s the solution for everyone though.


    We have to develop policy holistically.

    I think The government needs to set up something like a National construction company.

    working with councils to develop lands in the towns & city’s. I see so much wasted land & dumping grounds in my town that could be developed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,266 ✭✭✭mattser




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  • Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Ramasun


    The eviction ban has been good it's the uncertainty that's the problem. It would help if the opposition parties would specify how long they would keep it for or what circumstances they'd lift it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭PeadarCo



    A house in Dublin doesn't cost 500k unless you don't consider apartments to be houses. There are plenty of 2 bed apartments selling for 250k or less in Dublin. Never mind outside Dublin where prices are lower.

    Thats well within the price range of a couple on a combined salary of 60k or single professional. Generally the challenge is saving for the deposit.

    Based on Information so far provided by Revenue the average salary of people renting is between 30 and 40k and are generally relatively young. So for couples at least buying their own house/accommodation is still possible providing they can work up a deposit. The deposit is the hard part as it will take at least 2/3 years to build that up. Which the rent crisis does not help.



    When people talk about OAPs renting they appear to be the exceptions rather than the rule when it comes to renting based on the information available.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,978 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Just a few facts to collate the difference in the situation.

    His father and BIL are both probably older than me. I got married I got married and build ( subcontracted) our house in 1991.

    However I was at school in the 70's. Of the 25 odd boys that I was in the class in national school two did not go to secondary school. There was two second level schools in the town. A tech asbit was called and a secondary school ran by a religious order.

    In the tech there was thirty boys in first year with me. I think 2-3 were left before we did the group cert at the end of second year. 24 did the Intercert and I think a lad that did the leaving cert said seven sat the Leaving certificate.

    In the 70's a person in there mid 20's would often have been working ten years. If they were from Dublin they probably never moved out of home until they got married. There potent spouse was probably similar.

    It was harder on the lad for rural Ireland who probably rented if he had to move to a larger urban center for work. Actually many immigrated. I think out of my secondary school class 8-10 went abroad to with the US or the UK.

    So I guess it was not just the savings on frappucino's

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,450 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    The opposition that want to drive foreign investment out of the country through increased taxation.

    Morally I'm in agreement with them on that, big multinationals shouldn't be getting an easy time of it but we also have no natural resources and we're heavily reliant on foreign investment so we're stuck with what we've got unless we want an exodus of foreign investment from Ireland which is what the opposition are offering.

    That would certainly go some way to sorting out the housing crisis, large numbers of people won't have a job and the only people able to afford property at the new knock down prices will be the existing landlord class and vulture funds.

    The eviction ban was a sticking plaster solution, and we all know it hurts when they're ripped away. The FF/FG axis of greed remaining in power is option 1. A future devoid of employment that only ends up benefitting the existing wealthy people of Ireland brought to us by the current opposition and their short sighted approach to governance is the other.

    Either way the rich benefit and the working person gets stiffed yet again. Two bad options but at least the current opposition will be able to claim their ministerial pensions in years to come if we choose to elect them, every cloud and all that.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Ramasun


    The government could just use compulsory purchase orders for any property where people are at risk of eviction and take over the tenancy as social housing. Landlords get paid the value of the property and no one becomes homeless. I'm surprised this hasn't already been suggested by PBP or other socially conscious political parties.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭Field east


    Am I missing something re the following three points:-

    (1) I find it of interest the blocking of a lot of housing development plans by SF - the very party that want more houses built albeit on public lands only. If the builders/ developers are allowed to build the houses/apartments then they reckon there is a market for , then where do these people come from. I would expect that , in the main, they would come from other accommodation and a large % would be moving to upgrade their accommodation. My thinking is the more houses /apartments that are built the more accommodation that is freed up - irrespective of the type of accom built, where it is built, the price range , etc, etc. if this is allowed to proceed then we should see the price of houses/ renting cost come down. IS It NOT SIMPLE ECONOMICS?

    (2) rented property - especially residential type houses developed into apartments/flats could have anything between two and up to , say, 8 flats/apts. This is probably the case because a lot of landlords are smalltime/accidental landlords. So if such a landlord sells up and the house is bought by a family to be used exclusively for family purposes then this is solving the housing for one family but putting from one and to up to eight families/individuals back on to the housing market thus excaborating the housing problem. The simple solution is to keep landlords in the business of accommodation provision. - the more accommodation available the lower the rent. Is that not also SIMPLE ECONOMICS/LOGIC

    (3) Park the law with regards to bedsits and bring them back - until the housing crisis is solved There was no outcry -even a tiny screech- at the time when the gov decided to outlaw them. By all means basic standards / regulations should apply. Of course the Gov and others will come up with all kinds of reasons why that’s not on BUT at the end of the day a bedsitwill provide your own key, access to a toilet/washing facilities ,your own cooking/ food storage facilities, a BED TO SLEEP ON , a much reduced rent compared to current high rents, etc, etc. SO WHAT MORE DOES ONE WANT? I wonder at times if we are living beyond our means?

    (4) when you listen to Joe Duffy and other programmes and people come on and say that they are being evicted , thrown out on the road/ street, etc. , and have nowhere else to go. The interviewer then asks the minister, irrespective of what minister it is- where are these people/ families to go/ what are you doing about it, etc, etc, etc.

    how come the interviewer- WITHOUT EXCEPTION - never ask the interviewee if they have a mother, father , aunt , uncle, brother, sister, friend, neighbour, grandfather, grandmother, etc, etc, that they can stay with - at least in the short term. Of course such a question would not be asked as it would deflate a lot of interested parties

    the first go to re where to sleep in is the car



    s



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,971 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    All that knuckling down won't matter a jot if supply can't meet demand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 922 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    That's very true. If you have 100 people looking to buy houses and only 50 houses available, no matter how much everyone bids up the price, 50 people are going without a house. Eventually, with sky high prices supply will increase but this process can take many years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 922 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Another report highlighting the human aspect of the resumption of no fault evictions.

    Rebecca O'Riordan and her family (above) were served notice to quit the property they rent in Cork.




  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    The eviction ban was only introduced for covid, the way people are going on you would think ireland never had people in rentals move from one property to another.

    The person in the article confirms the LL has given them plenty of time and they are confident they will find another property.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    First off it’s not in any opposition parties interest for the housing crisis to be resolved, they will go on the tv and radio, fire out a few sob stories and say they care

    Then walk off and reject every property possible, if the government fix the housing crisis they would probably get voted in next time and for Sinn Fein that would be a disaster

    As I already posted on this thread the government asked for all parties to work together to resolve the housing crisis and Sinn Fein have continued to block everything possible, along with other parties. I struggle to see how supporters of SF then make excuses for them. I’m sure if you look maybe even government parties are still blocking?

    in terms of properties you have loads available but the regulations have forced out LL so lots are doing Airbnb etc as they can make decent money without the risk. Change the regulations to allow LL to get rid of non paying/bad tenants quickly and get those properties back into the market. But none of the parties want to do that and neither do tenants, yet we hear all the sob stories


    Just look at the famous “the ditch” and the main journalist running up 50k arrears while working and on the web telling everyone the government are terrible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    This is a good example of the posts on Twitter. Can anyone spot a few issues here? (Without reading comments of course which point them out)




  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Mullinabreena


    Caoimhe obviously doesn't know much about tax and interest rates. Four and a half thousand is steep all the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,272 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Interest rates are the cost to you of using other people's money. That is up to you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭Mullinabreena


    And rent is the cost to the tenant using someone else's property



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,272 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Correct. You make a decision to swap rental income for either interest paid or forgone (the cost of capital....but not the capital repayments though even though plenty think they are entitled to that too). You take that interest rate risk though. Your decision



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    Well the main issue is the amount of people online who seem to think rent is tax free.

    I do agree it seems steep but no idea of area etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    No they couldn’t, completely unconstitutional, the gov can’t just seize property from one person to give it to another (my Christ)

    CPO has to be for the common good, like building a hospital or a road or something everyone can use, not just taking one insidious assets and giving them to someone else



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You're not entirely correct. Local authorities are empowered to CPO derelict or dangerous properties from their owners. The properties are brought back into the housing stock as the council sees fit. They can and indeed do excecute CPOs of private property on this basis (particularly of late).

    CPO law is a complex area, and it's not as simple as waving Bunreacht na hEireann around. Property rights in Ireland are limited by a social good provision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,272 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Why is it that people conflate "profit" (or income) with "after tax income"? You only see landlords and teachers doing that.

    Granted, she isn't taking into account expenses but it appears most peoples gripes are along the lines that "the profit is only half that because of tax".



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Dereliction excepted well aware that if a building falls to a certain point it can be CPO’d but these are generally unoccupied.

    a whole different kettle of fish if you try to CPO a perfectly good rented property purely because it’s rented, as you say a complex area, but I can’t see any way to justify an action like this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    The original post was about the government just taking over a property if the tenant was going to be evicted even if the owner of the property didn’t want to sell

    Complex or not I don’t see how any legal person would consider advising the government to carry that out

    We had posts on here with people who went away on travels, came home and can’t get their own house back. If this suggestion was in place the government could force someone to sell their own house to give to a tenant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Every circumstance is different, but with the crisis gaining steam I can see certain circumstances such a hypothetical CPO surviving a legal and constitutional challenge in the courts. For instance, if a landlord was attempting to evict a person with a serious illness onto the streets.

    Bunreacht na hEireann and the property rights conferred within it is not a magic wand, a balancing of rights always takes place. Landlords and the landlord lobby in general would want to get their heads screwed on, because they may be surprised what kind of legal workarounds a government under the kosh in a social crisis could come up with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    The profit is only after all expenses etc. Which we have no idea what they are, but the main issue is like a lot of tenants this lady has no idea that LL has to pay tax on rent….

    Would she like someone to post her wages and not take into consideration tax etc and complain she is making too much?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,978 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Yes the government lost a CPO case where they tried to CPO a farm and hand it over to INTEL.

    Rent has to cover the costs associated with a rental to a LL.

    These are,

    Property tax ( this is not a tax deductibles item) so effectively it's out of after tax income.

    Interest on any loan this is tax deductible

    Any regulation costs such as the RTB as well as legal and registeration costs at purchase and sale

    Maintenance of the building

    Insurance costs

    Any management costs whether through management fees or agency costs

    If the LL takes on some of these tasks he is entitled to be paid for these tasks ( such as any maintenance or management work he carries out)

    Risk of having any tenant who either damages the property or refuses to pay rent

    If a LL has invested capital ( he will have to put up at lease 20% of the value of the property) he is entitled to a return on that investment. At present money in an bank will return 3.5% five year fixed longer term investment may give a higher return so money invested in a property needs to return 5%

    When you take everything into account a LL probably needs an ROI of 10% to cover costs and leave a comparable return to other options.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,272 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    As I said, the lady neglected expenses, but most people are complaining that the profit is much less than her number because of the 52% tax. It isn't. Profit is profit and you pay your tax on it after that.


    Do you ever see jobs advertised quoting after-tax wages? In Ireland



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Ah fantasy stuff, if there’s no precedent we may as well be talking about people with spare rooms being forced to take in lodgers, because it’s emotive, but extremely extremely unlikely, just as the hypothetical case you put forward is extremely extremely unlikely.

    it wouldn’t be a vote winner that’s for sure 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    There absolutely is precedent. As I pointed out to you, derelict and dangerous property is already CPO'd and brought back into use by local authorities. You say it doesn't happen. It already does.

    Certain folks need to shake off the delusion that property rights are completely untrammeled and unrestrained. They're not, and as this crisis builds, you'll see both government and the judiciary flex their muscles a bit more with the social good provision that applies to property.

    And as for vote winners, just as feckless property owners who deface towns and cities with dereliction and aren't exactly citizens of the year, property rights maximalists who push their luck and eject vulnerable people onto the street in a no-fault eviction scenario may find out that Bunreacht na hEireann doesn't grant legal superpowers. And landlords ain't a significant percentage of the population.

    Paddy Power may as well stop taking bets on a SF led government at this stage, and we may see such legal provisions in-praxis sooner than you think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    The only relevant part of the above is the first paragraph, and even then it’s not precedent, as has been pointed out there’s a world of difference CPOing a run down derelict building that may be an eyesore in a city centre (in fact I’m all for it) to taking a perfect property with tenants from its owner to give it to the tenants, seriously 🙄

    the rest of your comment is just opinion and wishful thinking, I’ll make one concession to the part about landlords not being a significant percentage of the population, maybe they’re not, but property owners are, and messing with property rights applies to the majority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    There's not a world of difference legally speaking actually.

    And, the original poster never suggested that such a hypthetical CPO would lead to the property "being given" to the tenant. That's you're insertion into the matter, not his/hers or indeed mine. All your's.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    I do agree it seems steep but no idea of area etc

    Well I'd say you well know, it's not downtown fking Manhattan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    They're already incentivized out the wazoo. There's tax deductions for everything from mortgage interest to white goods, to refurbishment. The government has gone as far as they can go with tax incentives.

    They're getting out because they're crystallising historically high property prices and the cohort that purchases buy-to-lets during the Celtic Tiger are firmly out of negative equity and are now heading to retirement. That's the reality and more fool to anyone that buys the taxation wheeze. Further sweetheart tax arrangements for passive income is profoundly unfair on PAYE workers and will not prevent landlords selling up for the reasons I outlined above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,375 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You should probably remind yourself that in 2020 SF were in the driving seat to form a Government and couldn't get it done because only the loony left would talk to them.

    31% vote share won't get them an overall majority and make no mistake, an overall majority is the only way they'll be able to get in. 36 seats to 88 seats in the next Dáil? Nah man, not in a million elections.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Lookit, the bookies may as well start paying out on a SF led government at this stage. I don't see that as a controversial post, most people have accepted it, and FF have those "come to bed eyes" despite their protestations the last time they went to the dance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm aware they've made woolly commitments to the likes of Michael Lowry in return for votes. Any further "incentives" to landlords at this stage are an act of political and economic stupidity. They may keep the government going for x number of months, but they'll be paying on the back-end in the next election. As long as house prices keep rising, landlords will continue to head for the exit.

    It's not even a policy they want to pursue, they're being hustled by independents.



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