Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

31-03-2023 8:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425152#Comment_120425152

It's just a bit of trivia.

Dubinusa · 31-03-2023 8:52pm

Anyone care to guess next seasons 6nations squad? There's going to be retirees, contracts etc and of course newer players popping up.

TRC10 · 31-03-2023 11:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425283#Comment_120425283

Sexton is already confirmed to be retiring. And you'd expect guys like Herring, Healy, Kilcoyne, O'Mahony, Murray, Aki and Earls will be moved on for the next RWC cycle too given they'll be 37+ in 2027. The likes of Beirne, Henderson, Conan, JGP and Lowe will probably be phased out more gradually.

If I had to take a stab now at the 2024 6N team, I'd say...

Porter
Sheehan
Furlong
Beirne
Ryan
Baird
VDF
Doris
Casey
Crowley
Lowe
Henshaw
Ringrose (c)
Hansen
Keenan

16.Stewart 17.Milne 18.O'Toole 19.McCarthy 20.Prendergast 21.Doak 22.Byrne 23.Osborne

A position of concern for me for the next RWC cycle is the wing. Our current starting wings are both imports (very good ones at that). But there aren't really any elite prospects on the wings at any of the provinces, and no one has really been lighting it up for the 20s in the last few years. It's not an area where we produce heaps of talent. Baloucoune has ability but he's very injury prone and doesn't get on the ball enough for an Andy Farrell team. Other than the one good year Stockdale had, we haven't produced a world class winger since Tommy Bowe. Either we'll need to find some more IQ guys, or convert some centres/full backs. Patrick Campbell is a guy I think could make a very good winger. I also liked the look of Chay Mullins on last years 20s. I'm interested to see how Andrew Smith goes at Connacht. Aitzol King looks a big, fast athlete too. Maybe someone like Liam Turner could make the switch.

Downlinz · 01-04-2023 12:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425918#Comment_120425918

People always underestimate the gravity of transition immediately after a RWC and it tends to be far less than expected. There's only 12 or so weeks between the start of the Six Nations 2024 and the end of the RWC 2023 so limited scope for a great upheaval.

Ultimately the IRFU as always will be thinking about the financials during the Six Nations and will expect an experienced group delivering results. There might be some changes to the very old like Healy or Earls but I would say with near 100% certainty that barring injury POM, Murray and Aki will receive caps in 2024.

stephen_n · 01-04-2023 12:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425991#Comment_120425991

Not to mention JGP not dropping out of the match day 23 altogether 😄😄

TRC10 · 01-04-2023 12:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426017#Comment_120426017

He'll be 35 at the next RWC and I don't see him as being so far ahead of the alternatives that he's guaranteed to keep his place. Guys like Beirne and Lowe would be moved on too but they're miles better than the next best.

pickarooney · 01-04-2023 7:20am

Unless Fabien Galthié comes on board to replace Farrell I don't see 2027 being of any relevance to the next 6N squad

Wegians89 · 01-04-2023 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425918#Comment_120425918

Calvin Nash would have something to say about that. Also have Russell looking decent

TRC10 · 01-04-2023 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427197#Comment_120427197

Yeah I really like Nash and can see him being capped this year. But I don't see him being a world class wing in 2027 aged 30.

On Russell, it's very hard to see him breaking into the Leinster 23 any time soon.

01-04-2023 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426043#Comment_120426043

You think he's just going to be totally jettisoned immediately after the RWC? C'mon now.

Sangre · 01-04-2023 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427741#Comment_120427741

Yes. By shooting him out of a canon back to New Zealand. As is tradition.

Fun fact. Logan’s run was based on the IRFUs selection policies in the 70s.

Clegg · 02-04-2023 1:01am

Might sound harsh, but tonight's game between Leinster and Ulster showed why Baloucoune isn't good enough to start for Ireland. Conditions were awful and he barely got a touch of the ball all game. But he never went infield looking for the ball unlike his Leinster counterparts or teammate on the wing.

Was disappointed with Michael Lowry as well. Despite being a player with prior experience at flyhalf he has no real kicking game and his default option is to run the ball back. Leinster exploited this tendancy and hunted him down multiple times to make big territorial gains.

TRC10 · 02-04-2023 2:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429743#Comment_120429743

I strongly suspect Calvin Nash might now be ahead of Baloucoune in Farrell's mind. We already know the Irish coaches rate him. He's a robust, tough winger who gets on the ball. Not to mention he's a threat with ball in hand. He's been Munster's best player in their last two games. Very likely he gets capped in one of the warm ups.

AbusesToilets · 02-04-2023 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120429743#Comment_120429743

Is that entirely fair on Balacoune tho? If the system isn't built to facilitate him coming into the line, you're just going to end up with a lad faffing about out of position. Do Ulster use their wingers like that?

02-04-2023 10:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430362#Comment_120430362

Tbf it’s been the same issue on his handful of chances for Ireland.

Athletically we don’t have a winger like him, but he just never looks to involve himself.

Feel like yesterday was a big step backwards for guys like him and Lowry in Ireland recognition, with Hume, Timoney, Treadwell not doing anything either to elevate their status.

Similarly in the Munster game, except for Calvin Nash you’d have to figure anyone who was already on the outside is even further away now.

Munster backrow are highly touted but they’ve been obliterated at the breakdown when it mattered two weekends in a row.

02-04-2023 10:26am

Stockdale had a good game, his regather led directly to Ulster's first try but otherwise wasn't a game for wingers. Lowe had an impact, Larmour and Balocoune were quiet. Lowry had one or two howlers and didn't really manage to make much of an impact on the game, quite a bit of daylight between him and Keenan you would think.

Thought Hume had a decent game all told, Leinster 10 - 12 - 13 didn't make much in rounds. McCloskey the stand out centre for me, but over all I think Ulster edged the mid field battle.

From an Ireland perspective, Herring had a good game and O'Toole was so so (discipline all over the place but then Ulster were playing to disrupt). Doak also had a very good game, more a natural successor for Murray than a half in the mould of JGP or Casey.

02-04-2023 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430466#Comment_120430466

Yeah, I like Doak and thought he was pretty good yesterday. Easy to forget just how young he still is to be such a key player for a good side.

Dubinusa · 02-04-2023 1:50pm

I thought Hume played well. Lowry though, I believe is way off the pace for international rugby. Stockdale was very good. Someone mentioned in another post that Treadwell was anonymous. He wasn't at the races at all.

Leinster just stuck to the plan. Nothing special, just getting the job done.

durthacht · 02-04-2023 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120430466#Comment_120430466

I think that's a little generous to Stockdale as, while he did gather a high ball to set up the cross-field kick for the first Ulster try, his missed tackle on JGP led to the third Leinster try. I understand the conditions made tackling very difficult, but he had a clear sight of JGP and decided to commit to the tackle which he then fell off leaving the Ulster goal line unprotected. I think that reinforces concerns about his decision-making and execution in defence.

The only other thing I recall him doing is running 40 meters to start a row over a collapsed scrum where he could have got a yellow card, and such poor discipline does not impress the Irish coaches.

He is has been in competition with JOB and Larmour for a world cup squad position, and I suspect he lost some ground yesterday because of defence and discipline.

Clegg · 02-04-2023 2:31pm

Wrong thread

cuttingtimber22 · 02-04-2023 3:10pm

Calvin Nash has to be part of the conservation for the squad. Coombes will need to do a hell of a lot over the rest of the season with Munster to get himself into the squad - very poor performances over the last few weeks.

BoardsMember · 02-04-2023 6:03pm

Coombes won't get near the final squad for RWC.

02-04-2023 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432082#Comment_120432082

But he played and lost against Toulouse twice!!

stephen_n · 02-04-2023 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432082#Comment_120432082

I’m not sure that’s true at all. He’s not getting in the match day squad as things stand. However the other backrow places for the traveling squad are still wide open. Not to mention the chance of injury between now and then. If Conan of Doris get injured, Coombes is the next in line. Also it depends on which second rows are fit to travel.

If Ryan, Beirne and Henderson are all fit and either McCarthy or Treadwell travel as the 4th. Then Baird travels as a backrow and that narrows Coombes chance of making the squad. If Baird travels as a hybrid though, then Coombes might come into the squad in one of the backrow slots.

Either way, the last 2 games haven’t helped his chances though.

02-04-2023 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432248#Comment_120432248

Coombes is the next in line

Cian Prendergast seems to be next backrow in line given he travelled with the squad to away games during the 6N, warmed up with the 23 before games etc.

Wegians89 · 02-04-2023 6:47pm

Unless Doris or Conan get injured there isn’t a chance of Coombes going in my opinion. Even if one of those two are injured I’d prefer Deegan to go

stephen_n · 02-04-2023 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432287#Comment_120432287

Well that’s why it depends on what Baird travels as. Since I assume we will be bringing 6 backrows.

TRC10 · 02-04-2023 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432309#Comment_120432309

4 locks and 5 backrows is the usual model. I see us taking 4 locks, 4 backrows + Baird as a hybrid, meaning Coombes is very unlikely to make it barring injury.

02-04-2023 7:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432309#Comment_120432309

Baird was benching as a second row in that game. And obviously started there against England. Has he ever played backrow for Ireland?

aloooof · 02-04-2023 7:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432093#Comment_120432093

There were legitimate claims for him to feature during the 6 Nations after a run of brilliant performances.

Sarcastic posts like this don’t really change that.

stephen_n · 02-04-2023 7:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432364#Comment_120432364

He has come off the bench at 6 and was selected as a backrow for the tour to New Zealand. Unless I’m mistaken he was also selected as a backrow not second row in the 6N squad and only ended up there due to injuries to both Henderson, Beirne and McCarthy.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 02-04-2023 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432548#Comment_120432548

I don't think he has come off the bench at 6. Maybe he did but he was wearing the 19 shirt.

You are right that he has been listed at backrow in squad announcements for both New Zealand tour (where he only played lock) and this six nations (where he also only played lock).

Dubinusa · 02-04-2023 8:07pm

Would Coombes have made Leinster's squad yesterday?

irelandrover · 02-04-2023 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432605#Comment_120432605

Yes

Dubinusa · 02-04-2023 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432624#Comment_120432624

At who's expense?

Clegg · 02-04-2023 8:47pm

Munster had a lot of issues at the breakdown earlier this season and again in recent games. They've been slowed down in attack and also failed to slow down ball in defence. That area of the game is traditionally where the backrow is expected to do the most work, although it has become more of a 15 man effort in recent years.

I wonder if those struggles is what's stopping Coombes, and to a lesser extent Hodnett, from making Ireland squads? The test side is the best in the world at generating fast ball at the breakdown through its exemplary clear out work. Players seen to struggle at that area provincially will find it hard to gain selection.

Former Former Former · 02-04-2023 8:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432803#Comment_120432803

Penny, you'd assume.

If Doris was fit, Coombes does not make the 23.

aloooof · 02-04-2023 9:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432806#Comment_120432806

They were brilliant at generating quick ball for almost every game from the SA up to the Toulouse game prior to the 6 Nations tho. That’s a string of 10 games.

Their attacking play that they were getting roundly praised for relied on it.

It’s become a problem in last 2 games for sure, and is something that will need to be addressed, but it wasn’t previously an issue.

EDIT: And to add, POM is hugely influential with regards generating Ireland's quick ruck ball. He hit the most attacking rucks of any player during his time on the pitch vs England.

02-04-2023 9:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432624#Comment_120432624

Probably would have been a toss-up between him, Penny and Deegan.

So, maybe.

He clearly doesn't if Doris is fit.

foxyladyxx · 02-04-2023 9:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120432605#Comment_120432605

No. Penny and Deegan next.

Maybe Hodnett?

Must love hardship · 02-04-2023 9:36pm

The back row is extremely competitive. With lots of quality options.

A few excellent players will unfortunately miss out.

Where else could we see changes?

Could Loughman get back in and squeeze out kilkoyne?

Steward v Herring?

Doak to come with a last dash to take caseys spot?

foxyladyxx · 02-04-2023 9:37pm

No Penny or Deegan would be next in line.

I can see Hodnett playing after the World Cup but not before.

aloooof · 02-04-2023 9:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433002#Comment_120433002

I could absolutely see Loughman getting in ahead of Kilcoyne, far more suited to Ireland’s style.

I think Herring has enough credit in the bank to retain his spot, but Stewart looks a quality prospect.

I think Casey will keep his spot too; having an excellent season with overall, and the most like-for-like replacement for JGP.

Must love hardship · 02-04-2023 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433023#Comment_120433023

Any word on when loughman is back. I thought he was nearing a return.

Not convinced on casey. Yes he might be most like for like with JGP but he got monstered at the weekend. He didn't have great protection from his pack but he's just too small against those bigger teams. Defensively I'd just be worried..

foxyladyxx · 02-04-2023 10:13pm

Loughman ahead of Kilcoyne.

Steward ahead of Herring.

Doak ahead of Casey.

aloooof · 02-04-2023 10:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433127#Comment_120433127

I can see where you're coming from, but it's hard to be critical of your 9 when the breakdown was was much of a problem as it was. Murray's obviously significantly better defensively than him for example, but he was pretty poor when he came on too.

02-04-2023 10:26pm

I can’t see Casey missing out at this point - he’s played well for Ireland this season when given the opportunity and has largely had a good season.

Doak is more composed than Casey at this point, but is a poorer stylistic fit for Ireland.

It’s funny though - for all the talk of Ross Byrne’s poor athleticism - Casey has more glaring athletic deficiencies than Byrne just purely down to his size.

Stewart looks a quality player, but his best chance of making it will be if Kelleher’s injury problems persist. I can’t see Rob Herring falling out of this squad - he’s been excellent for Ireland in big spots multiple times.

Could see Loughman get ahead of Kilcoyne if he gets some game time. Kilcoyne’s scrummaging is too big of a liability, and Loughman is better suited to Ireland’s style.

aloooof · 02-04-2023 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433181#Comment_120433181

It’s funny though - for all the talk of Ross Byrne’s poor athleticism - Casey has more glaring athletic deficiencies than Byrne just purely down to his size.

I think Casey's lack of size has been pretty commonly discussed tbh. In any case, it'd be far more typical to have your 10 in the defensive line and your 9 sweeping behind, so easier hide in that respect.

02-04-2023 10:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433208#Comment_120433208

I dunno - there have been more examples this season of Casey’s defensive failings than there have been of Ross Byrne’s. Casey is not particularly fast for his small stature either.

aloooof · 02-04-2023 11:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433224#Comment_120433224

Lack of athleticism doesn't just come down to defense tho. With regards attack, Casey is exceptionally quick to every breakdown and loves a snipe, despite his size.

He's got a pretty decent try-scoring record, for example (significantly better than RB's I'd wager). That's in the main because of his ability to get to the breakdown quickly, and react quickly.

I daresay this is just another one we'll have to agree to disagree on, FTD.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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