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The Kerry Babies Case

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  • Registered Users Posts: 35,065 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm not aware of any guards, doctors or teachers who engaged in a large-scale conspiracy to shield paedophiles from justice, but you might be able to enlighten me.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    Isn't the whole point that you wouldn't be aware?



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,065 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Neither of them may be responsible for the murder, but at least one of them knows who the murderer is. And kept quiet about that for 39 years even as another family was tortured over it. Despicable.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,065 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Prosecuting a murder is always in the public interest no matter how far back it is. There is no statute of limitations for murder.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,482 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    It's certainly possible but by no means certain.

    Without further evidence all one can say is that they are the baby's parents.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Generally, I agree. But even without knowing all the facts, this case has features which may mean the DPP may step back from it.

    For instance, one of the possible scenarios* is that the mother killed the child in a post-natal psychotic break - which could leave us with a case of manslaughter or guilty but insane on the face of things. Better understood now, but not understood in 1984. If it goes in that direction, I can envision a lot of people being uncomfortable with a prosecution being pursued. With the passage of time, mounting a defence may be extremely difficult (can a credible psychological report be generated 40 years after the fact? I don't know) - the prospect of the case being thrown out due to the danger of an unsafe trial would be high.

    I'm not answering yay or nay to a prosecution either way, but in the above scenario for instance, the DPP would have to have the wisdom of Job to make the right call in deciding to bring a prosecution or not. Where the case rests in Irish social and legal history is another consideration, a prosecution of what was an ill mother may not play well with the public at all.

    *That's just one scenario, and entirely speculative at that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,065 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users Posts: 35,065 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Even in the scenario you've outlined there needs to be a prosecution. If mental health is successfully used as a defence then fine, but justice will be seen to be done in a public court. Just sweeping it under the carpet is not acceptable.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Acorn 737


    Someone is or was carrying some baggage from the time, the grave has been vandalised several times over the years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,516 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    If the DPP doesn't see a reasonable likelyhood of conviction, they are unlikely to proceed. A trial will not be conducted for some appeasement of the public.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The DPP can and do decline cases for public interest reasons. This may well be one of them.

    A lack of evidence or the risk of an unconstitutional trial with the inability to adequetly mount a defence due to the passage of time being dragged throught the higher courts for years is exactly a scenario whereby they may walk away.

    If they have a slam-dunk case of murder, they'll proceed - if not, (and this is just my view) the DPP will probably be shy to proceed. I don't think it's in anyone's interest for this extremely sad and grim case to become another circus.

    There is no exact science to this, and wisdom will be required from the Gardai, the DPP and the judiciary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 962 ✭✭✭James 007


    I notice also that my post was deleted too without notification. The facts are out there already in kerry circles, the parents ages at the time are known, their names are known, the location where they have since resided is known. The fact that they were taken to different stations for questioning is perhaps now irrelevant as they have already spent the last 40 years ironing out their story line.

    If indeed they have made 'no comment' during the 24 hour questioning, then can they be charged on the suspicion of murder & withholding information.

    The easier route out for them to not have themselves implicated is indeed to say that Baby John was murdered by a relative for example her mother as she is since deceased, however again, can they be charged on withholding information all this time.

    Now the question is, do the gardai have any third-party leads already, now that they know the parents what new leads can they explore, are friends of both parents likely to talk, do they know anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,117 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    I would consider the parents to have an obligation to explain what they know at the very least.

    Unless someone took Baby John while his parents were asleep (or possibly the mother only if they weren't living together at the time, and then they never spoke about it over the last 39 years as unlikely as that seems) at least one of them knows something.

    Their 3 day old son was brutally murdered, and that would have been traumatic for them if they had no involvement, so why not talk now that they are confirmed as the parents?

    We don't know yet who killed the baby, and may never know, but it's time the parents opened up about what happened. They can't return to life as it was before anyway at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    If indeed they have made 'no comment' during the 24 hour questioning, then can they be charged on the suspicion of murder & withholding information.

    If we are in possession of most of the facts (i.e. they are matched to the baby via DNA, but have not commented and there is no other evidence), the high likelihood is the DPP will not recommended charges. Neither would they be charged with withholding evidence, they have a constitutional right to silence. The Gardai are not empowered to pursue murder charges, only the DPP.

    Pursuing prosecutions where there is an extremely low chance of a conviction is bad prosecutorial practice and ultimately undermines confidence in the justice system at large. This case already is in the pantheon of Irish criminal justice and legal screw-ups - let's not generate another one.

    I'm not even speaking in defence of the couple necessarily here, just trying to float the idea that the Gardai and DPP trying to pot a conviction by all means necessary without facts to hang a case on is probably a poor idea.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Has the grave been vandalised since around the time of the exhumation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Acorn 737


    I don’t know, nothing too recent that I’ve heard of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,708 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Does anyone find the vandalisation of the grave a bit GUBU?

    Who would do such a thing? Surely the murderer or murderers would steer well clear of it and keep their heads down, if it wasn't them, who would have interest in the desecration of a little baby's grave?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭Xander10


    it's not something uncommon. The grave of  Raonaid Murray, an unsolved murder, has been vandalised several times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Benmann


    It hasn't been vandalised since they took the "I Forgive" down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,708 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Yeah, you're right. Very odd, surely it would simply bring the whole case back in to the light instead of quietly going away which is what one would imagine these murderers would have wanted (if it was them that vandalised it).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Acorn 737


    It seems like a taunt in its own right, as in “look what I got away with and you’ll never find me” kind of scenario. The whole thing is sickening from start to finish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,183 ✭✭✭✭Purple Mountain


    God, yes. That poor girl. That was never solved.

    To thine own self be true



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,708 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Yep. The whole thing is tragic. Unimaginable, I have a feeling we'll never learn who vandalised the baby's grave.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    You can spend 40 years getting a story straight

    That can all go out the window very quickly depending on what's thrown at you in interview



  • Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭Mo Ghile Mear


    There are sad people out there who get their kicks out of getting involved in dramatic cases, like when people make hoax reports of a sighting of a missing person or make up false evidence etc. The grave would be a sitting duck for weirdos to target, knowing it will be in the local paper or even on national news next day.

    I'd say it's most likely someone who had nothing at all to do with the murder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,806 ✭✭✭take everything


    For someone who expressed concern about undue speculation about this case (giving it, from what I could tell, as a reason for why the solicitor is acting like he is), you're speculating about the mother's mental health. As the other poster said, irrespective of mental health, guilt or innocence, none of this is reason to sweep this under the rug, and not answer these questions, which is what the solicitor (and, I take it, you?) want.

    Surely the child who was brutally murdered deserves that at least. And It's nothing to do with punishment, more that the outstanding questions are answered at the very least.

    I don't get the other mindset at all to be honest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I was merely giving one possible hypothesis and teasing out the prosecutorial process. The hypothesis I gave is just one where both the DPP and State would concievably experience major blowback if they pushed a prosecution. We can already see from the commentary on the case over the last week or so the complex sensitivities around it.

    The reality is that the Gardai have even less than that in their hands. If there's no evidence, and the couple won't talk, the liklihood of prosecution is extremely low. You can't hang a murder case on zero facts.

    It's already under the rug for better or worse, and short of the couple spilling the beans it's likely to stay that way. If they had hard evidence of a murder with malice of forethought and can pin it to an individual with a credible case by all means they should go after it - but they don't.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    but at least one of them knows who the murderer is

    You don't know this for sure!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,806 ✭✭✭take everything


    I find it abhorrent and very depressing (and I hope most people would) that a child can be murdered and due to the parents not spilling the beans (as you say), the legal system can be powerless to do anything.

    Surely the best thing they can do is be forthcoming (which I'm sure they can be). "No comment" just demonstrates further their lack of care for that child. They do know something (even if the child was taken from them etc).

    Indeed as you say the DPP may take this no further (if they say nothing), and that's simply abhorrent to me.



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