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The eviction ban

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,846 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    As I said, the lady neglected expenses, but most people are complaining that the profit is much less than her number because of the 52% tax. It isn't. Profit is profit and you pay your tax on it after that.


    Do you ever see jobs advertised quoting after-tax wages? In Ireland



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Ah fantasy stuff, if there’s no precedent we may as well be talking about people with spare rooms being forced to take in lodgers, because it’s emotive, but extremely extremely unlikely, just as the hypothetical case you put forward is extremely extremely unlikely.

    it wouldn’t be a vote winner that’s for sure 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    There absolutely is precedent. As I pointed out to you, derelict and dangerous property is already CPO'd and brought back into use by local authorities. You say it doesn't happen. It already does.

    Certain folks need to shake off the delusion that property rights are completely untrammeled and unrestrained. They're not, and as this crisis builds, you'll see both government and the judiciary flex their muscles a bit more with the social good provision that applies to property.

    And as for vote winners, just as feckless property owners who deface towns and cities with dereliction and aren't exactly citizens of the year, property rights maximalists who push their luck and eject vulnerable people onto the street in a no-fault eviction scenario may find out that Bunreacht na hEireann doesn't grant legal superpowers. And landlords ain't a significant percentage of the population.

    Paddy Power may as well stop taking bets on a SF led government at this stage, and we may see such legal provisions in-praxis sooner than you think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    The only relevant part of the above is the first paragraph, and even then it’s not precedent, as has been pointed out there’s a world of difference CPOing a run down derelict building that may be an eyesore in a city centre (in fact I’m all for it) to taking a perfect property with tenants from its owner to give it to the tenants, seriously 🙄

    the rest of your comment is just opinion and wishful thinking, I’ll make one concession to the part about landlords not being a significant percentage of the population, maybe they’re not, but property owners are, and messing with property rights applies to the majority.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    There's not a world of difference legally speaking actually.

    And, the original poster never suggested that such a hypthetical CPO would lead to the property "being given" to the tenant. That's you're insertion into the matter, not his/hers or indeed mine. All your's.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    I do agree it seems steep but no idea of area etc

    Well I'd say you well know, it's not downtown fking Manhattan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    They're already incentivized out the wazoo. There's tax deductions for everything from mortgage interest to white goods, to refurbishment. The government has gone as far as they can go with tax incentives.

    They're getting out because they're crystallising historically high property prices and the cohort that purchases buy-to-lets during the Celtic Tiger are firmly out of negative equity and are now heading to retirement. That's the reality and more fool to anyone that buys the taxation wheeze. Further sweetheart tax arrangements for passive income is profoundly unfair on PAYE workers and will not prevent landlords selling up for the reasons I outlined above.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You should probably remind yourself that in 2020 SF were in the driving seat to form a Government and couldn't get it done because only the loony left would talk to them.

    31% vote share won't get them an overall majority and make no mistake, an overall majority is the only way they'll be able to get in. 36 seats to 88 seats in the next Dáil? Nah man, not in a million elections.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Lookit, the bookies may as well start paying out on a SF led government at this stage. I don't see that as a controversial post, most people have accepted it, and FF have those "come to bed eyes" despite their protestations the last time they went to the dance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm aware they've made woolly commitments to the likes of Michael Lowry in return for votes. Any further "incentives" to landlords at this stage are an act of political and economic stupidity. They may keep the government going for x number of months, but they'll be paying on the back-end in the next election. As long as house prices keep rising, landlords will continue to head for the exit.

    It's not even a policy they want to pursue, they're being hustled by independents.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Lil Fred


    Tax change will be either full mortgage (capital el& interest) deduction or tax rate at corp rate (ie 12.5%)



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,669 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    What you mention as tax incentives such as interest relief and white goods are just normal business expenses, they are not tax reliefs.

    Other business expenses are not allowed such as property tax or some property maintenance where that spending is considered improvement, it's a reason LL are reluctant to do up properties.

    Na at 31% they are still 6-7% behind a combined FF/FG vote. Next election they wil decimate the small left parties and probably 60+seats but that is 20+short of a majority. The looney left wil be lucky to have 6-10seats more.

    Last election FF voters did not transfer to FG while FG transfers helped get a significant number of independent and FF seats over the line.

    SF are at least another election away from government.

    I do not think so. It will probably be in the form of a tax relief similar to the rent a room relief

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,758 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Una has identified that the cause of the problem is the ending of the eviction ban.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/04/03/actions-speak-louder-than-words-this-government-just-doesnt-care/

    The actual cause is apartments being unviable to build by smaller developers due to the cost of standards that are too high being imposed, anti build-to-rent hysteria, a planning process that let's every Tom, Dick and Harry have their say and hold up any development, not being able to build higher and more dense developments for more people, high immigration rates with not enough physical housing units to go around...on and on, one policy disaster after another.

    None of these mentioned of course.

    We are adding hundreds of newcomers each week. They have nowhere to go.

    By the end of this summer Una will see destitution and desperation on the streets of Dublin like she's never seen before. It's shocking, it's sad but it's an indictment of how this country has been run.

    This will be the highly visible consequences of populism and policies that never ever made common sense mostly promoted from the left for decades.

    Still no acknowledgement or contrition from a paper which had no small part to play in the mess we find ourselves in.

    I don't expect reality to dawn early enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Agree with tax being similar to rent a room relief, however something the gov needs to be aware of is how they implement that, it’s great for people with one property, however for people with 2 or more it onlhbincentivises them to keep 1 property.

    However if the relief is applied to each property instead of an individuals overall tax payment, then that could turn a serious corner and stem the tide of people leaving and encourage investment into BTLs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    This posts and others show a lack of understanding of the rental market in Ireland. Part of the reason why I posted the twitter comment above to show the complete lack of knowledge.

    LL are leaving the market for years, if not selling up they are moving to short term loans like AirBnB yet we still have posts like this saying it because of the price of houses. LL have been across all media for years telling anyone that would listen why they are moving out of the market. Yet we still have people who won't listen and come up with waffle like this about the price of houses. If it was just the price of houses why are all the properties available as AirBnB?

    In terms of the great saviours SF, just have a look at what they are at in the North and tells you all you need to know. Also the chances of SF getting into government are increasing and that is forcing more LL out of the market as they expect a complete sh*t storm when they have SF in government.

    It's not just LL either, it's the Gardai, the nurses etc etc etc

    This is what the potential Minster for Housing thinks is a good use of twitter.


    Post edited by redlough on


  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    Everyone with an ounce of humanity empathises with all of these stories but there is a narrative in these stories of people who did 'nothing wrong' getting thrown on the street. A quote from that article:

    "When we got the notice to quit, we just cried because we made the stupid mistake that every person who's renting makes all the time, and I've made it so many times. That you start to feel like it's your home and we make this mistake every time."

    This just doesn't make sense to me, if you are responsible for planning and housing your own family and just ignore that you are in temporary accommodation, that can be sold, especially if 'it keeps happening', you need to take some personal responsibility. And if that involves emigrating then that's a choice you need to consider in my opinion, I did it myself.

    Also:

    "So should I give away the pets or give away the furniture? Or both?."

    Why get pets and buy furniture when you are renting in temporary accommodation when you know it's very hard to rent somewhere unfurnished with pets and might have to move? That's something you would do if you were on the verge of buying a place.

    The lack of supply is a huge problem that needs to be sorted out, but everyone knows the situation, sticking your head in the sand then expecting the government to step in and seize the property you are renting for you doesn't seem like the right solution to me. I'm not saying that these families did that, but the politicians seem to be encouraging this entitled attitude now. It's clearly wrong but it's obviously the most popular thing to do to win votes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Eoin O'Broin is wonderful at the auld platitudes, but he simply isn't a serious person.

    If he ever gets a cabinet job (perish the thought), he'll be like Stephen Donnelly, only worse, a man wedded to academic model idealism and utterly unable to deal with real world practicalities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    There are a few posters on here that are driven to demonise and argue against landlords, probably due to some personal back stories or agenda, their arguments are looking more and more ridiculous to everyone as the rental crisis unfolds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    This is the bit I found strange in the article" "With two kids and four animals you would like your own space. You wouldn't like to be in somebody else's way and maybe get them in trouble with their landlord because you are staying on their couch. Also we have our own furniture. So should I give away the pets or give away the furniture? Or both?."

    Why would you have 4 pets if renting? everyone knows pets are a huge turn off for landlords as they can cause major damage to houses/apartments and can also be a nuisance for neighbours etc

    I love my pets but when renting I never got one till I owned by own property



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    Dont get me wrong, some LL are bad. But the campaign been driven at the moment against LL is ridiculous.

    Ireland needs a rental market, you can't have that without LL which people don't seem to understand and its not like we can depend on the CC to run rental when we see the 105m+ arrears they have built up



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,374 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    I bought my house in the 90's on a single public servant wage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    I think you'd be surprised at how widely it is understood and often by people arguing for the measures driving landlords out - purely to win votes, sabotaging the rental market for their own political careers. It's sickening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    Neither of those would be enough. And besides they probably have more red tape and conditions attached to them.

    What they need to do is remove tax altogether guaranteed for 5 years minimum. Also they need to put confidence back in the landlords that they will be able to get their property bqack if they want to use it themselves or sell.

    And there needs to be government backed eviction for non paying tenants within a month.

    And they need to make all these changes NOW, instead of promising it in the next budget which noone will wait for at this point.

    All of that MAY, but I doubt it, be enough to stop some landlords leaving the market between now and the budget. It certainly will not be enough to get any who havew left to get back in. It will not persuade any new landlords to enter the market either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    Talking to people at the weekend who were renting before & some still are.

    Landlord gives notice to HAP tenant they want to sell. Tenant goes to council says their going to be homeless they’ve nowhere to go.

    Council approach landlord & ask how much for the house. Council writes a check, tenant gets free house they no they’ll never be evicted from & cheap rent.

    Id say this scenario is being copied & pasted all over the country.

    Why would anybody want to work & get a mortgage when this **** is happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,846 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    The government has spent years inflating up the price of property. It can, if it wants, also help to deflate it.

    As I explained above, simple measures like increasing Stamp Duty will do this. While some people might not be able to understand this, they might be surprised to know that not only was it much higher in the past, it is also currently 7.5% for non-residential property. (And - in what will undoubtedly blow their minds further - there are schemes whereby people can obtain SD relief for some forms of property transaction too). So rather than opening up its chequebook to inflate prices up even further, it can instead take reasonable measured steps to help the system.

    If the hysterical claim of "landlords fleeing the market" was something that the government wanted to stop, it could similarly increase GGT for a few years. Again in case that is beyond the comprehension of some, they'll be happy to know that it was higher in the past. Although I would not advocate for such a measure as flushing out incompetent have-a-go landlords is ultimately a good thing. Why would we want to prolong a system with disparate and fickle incompetents having control of an essential good?



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    The bigger issue is once the house is bought and the tenant knows they won't be evicted they stop paying rent and the CC doesn't evict them still

    This is then reducing the money the council has for repairs and buying properties so the CC goes to the government looking for money. So the government has to hand out more tax payers money to the CC to help other people.

    All the while the tenant is sitting, rent free in a house while still collecting rent allowances etc

    Of course in all of this the Landlord is the terrible terrible person who the whole of Ireland should hate, when they rented the property and paid up to 50% tax on the rent and did repairs etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    They need to give the LL the power to remove tenants if they are not paying.

    The same as they need to give the banks the power to remove non paying mortgage holders which are also pumping up the prices of mortgages.

    It's too long now the tax payer in Ireland is supporting a shower of wasters and getting screwed at every turn



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    Exactly, the system is being abused by everyone.

    Now I’m competing against the council’s who have deep pockets for property so I’ve no chance.

    The policy of rewarding people everything who don’t contribute has got to change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,518 ✭✭✭matrim


    The expectation of furnished properties and having the landlord provide everything is one of the problems with the Irish property market. We need to move to a mostly unfurnished rental market where the majority of rentals should expect to have to provide their own furniture but they should also expect to live in a property for a number of years at a time



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  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    I'm a landlord with a good tenant.

    Keeping an eviction ban long term would have been legally dubious.

    The council buying houses or apartment is not a magic bullet as some properties not suitable for various reasons

    We do need better tenant protection but bar the above I would not go further because landlords are nervous with the way the market is going.

    The tweet with guards is just one argument to sell up.

    The RTB is a a joke



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