Is it time to join Nato

Everything. Everywhere.

All at once.

South Africa became a dominion within the Empire in 1910 (as did Ireland a decade later). Dominions though were NOT independent in 1910 (or 1922). They were administrative units within the Empire and Westminster had the power to unilaterally abolish any of them up until (roughly) the mid 30s. Even then, it was their various majesties that entered into international treaties on behalf of their dominions (a situation that applied to Ireland until 1949).

Russia has still by far the largest military of any county in Europe. Ukraine has the second largest and even with that and a ferocious defence they have still lost almost 20% of their country.

There is probably no other country in Europe that could have put up such a resistance since for most European countries losing that much territory would mean the country was completely overrun and its government and armed forces were either captured, killed or forced into exile.

It's always those most vocal in support of NATO, that seem to have a peculiar obsession with aggressive militarism and also are very likely to turn a blind eye to western atrocities and imperialism around the world...

Interesting that... very interesting.

I'm sure there are a few people around here, who would likely wet themselves with excitement at the prospect of US/NATO military bases on our Island. And possibly even the hosting of nuclear weapons too.

Turn Shannon into a permanent US air force base, for them to use as a launchpad for all the future wars they're planning? Hell yeah, sign paddy up for some of that action! Lets play our part in spreading more US style peace and democracy around the world! 🙄

The point I was attempting to make is that Russian still has the largest army in Europe. No other country can match it in manpower terms. When you are willing to suffer high casualties on a long term basis (and Putin is certainly willing), those extra numbers do matter because the opposing side is just ground down by weight of numbers.

Ukraine is mounting a heroic defence but the conflict is still one of Russia pounding Ukraine’s cities and towns and occupying Ukrainian territory, not vice versa. The conflict is essentially an “away match” for ordinary Russians.

PS I wouldn’t get your hopes up about Finland - Russia already occupies large parts of what were once Finland (ie since after Ireland left the U.K.) - including what was once Finland’s second or third largest city. Finland is joining NATO precisely because it knows it has little chance of holding off a Russian attack.

Remind us about the winter war

Isn't NATO membership a bigger, more aggressive step than Ireland participating in EU mutual defence/future evolution of that (for several reasons) and much more likely to severely anger the "hysterical" people?

Anyway, I think very practical things are happening now at EU level e.g. a group of countries recently came together to organise a large ammunition order (for Ukraine).

We're just left out of it, it is moving far, far too fast for the often glacial pace of change here. The politicians are aware that something is happening and situation has changed, but I think (maybe I am wrong?) for most Irish people Ukraine may as well be on the moon or mars as regards considering impact the war there has on our defence/security here. It does not compute.

I don't believe the other members are going to be humming and hawing and wondering "oh wait up - hold those horses! what does Ireland think?" about collective security and defence (ala the bygone era of Lisbon referendum - a very different world).

If they think it necessary they will find a way and go ahead and do it (like recent moves into collective procurement of weapons), and we can get on the train or stay off (which will distance us from the other EU members that participate in it).

They also slaughtered the Russians wholesale,

Besides maps can be redrawn at any time

So we have three Russian ‘cargo’ vessels operating suspiciously off our west coast near the new subsea communication cables.

yet, no capability to launch a single naval vessel of our own to monitor them or deter them. Not one can be launched.

As an island nation, that is really superb. Best we could do was send an Aer Corps turboprop up and take photos of them.. 🤷‍♂️

might as well dispose of the defence forces and give photography Ireland more funding…

a possible threat or at minimum a situation to be deterred … “ sure, get a few pics, be grand “

NATO ? Can we afford it ? Seeing as we can’t afford to get our shît together to mobilise a single navy ship.

Wonder why Russia behaved suspiciously doubling their 2 cable exploration ships back and hovering over the undersea cables just off the Galway coast?

Especially at this time of year, when our navy had no ships at sea at all at all. Fecks sake, them Russians time it just after Paddies day when they know everyone is off having a bit of fun in the pub, and then at a weekend, and then they know the Dail are off on a few weeks Easter holidays. Only for a few eagle eyed bird watchers with binoculars looking out at the sea off Connemara, we would not have had confirmation those ships were there at all, we may have thought it was those enemies in the BBC and Sky playing tricks.

Lets hope it was only them auld undersea cable the Russians were having a gawk at. If they cut them when the US President is here and he cannot show his pictures to the diaspora of himself drinking a pint of Guinness it will be very embarrassing though. I doubt if them Russians were up to anything else like offloading a few crates of AK47s to the lads in the new 'RA, that type of carry on died out a long time ago. Naw, my main worry is Biden, we have to keep them cables connecting us and Europe to America.

"NATO ? Can we afford it ? Seeing as we can’t afford to get our shît together to mobilise a single navy ship." you say.

Come on now, its not fair to ask the navy lads to go to sea in this cold weather, it would skin you outside, and anyway are they not on their Easter holidays?

The difference is that should the government decide Ireland should join NATO, it requires a straightforward vote in the Dáil, and the democratic decision is made either way.

On the other hand, in each and every single ECs/EU referendum we have had, there have been people getting hysterical and scaremongering about an “EU Army”, conscription and fighting in some imaginary war somewhere. That has happened even when there was no mention of defence or security anywhere in the ECs/EU Treaties being adopted or modified at the time.

I believe that the people throwing that sort of stuff around know full well they are talking nonsense and, for most of them, it’s just a convenient tactic to promote a Eurosceptic/anti-membership vote.

Hence, to counter their tactic, I believe we should join NATO so the entire Eurosceptic defence attack is nullified prior to any future referenda on EU matters.

(And, for the record, I amn’t a particular fan of NATO (since it’s too reliant on the US) but we live in an imperfect world).

But maps can we redrew at any stage,if Russia attacked Finland next week, Russia would lose the 10% and more territory than they ever gained over the last few decades