Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

odyssey06 · 03-04-2023 01:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434623#Comment_120434623

And what exactly? Are you making a specific point about Ireland or vaccines? Because in the article you linked highly vaccinated Spain is at the bottom of the list. So if you are making a specific point about Ireland it would seem to undercut any argument linking it to vaccines.

You do realise some country must be #4 on the list? In and of itself, it means nothing.

You have also picked just one month, December 2022. Not even the entire year. And my post was in reply to your claim that excess deaths were still running above average. So how does December 2022 trump February 2023? It doesn't, which is why I picked the latest available figures I could find from a highly vaccinated country.

And the article even says: However, Mr Donnelly said the estimates of excess mortality rates for recent weeks were “reported with some uncertainty and should be interpreted with caution”.

Are those figures age adjusted? Because when the figures for England were age adjusted for 2022 it showed no real increase in excess mortality.

So actually the article you linked appears to undercut your position, not support it.

Dohnjoe · 03-04-2023 01:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434623#Comment_120434623

What does this have to do with vaccines?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434397#Comment_120434397

I haven't seen you express any genuine issue or concern in this thread.

Excess deaths! still running above average, why?

Explained multiple times in this thread

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-64209221

Healthcare crisis. Lasting effects of pandemic (and Covid) and several other factors.

03-04-2023 01:47PM

I have always been a pro-vaccine individual, had all childhood shots a available in my time , I get annual influenza shot, have had course of Hep A/B vax, Rabies shots for travel etc, Cholera protection, all saving me from developing these conditions.

I also had 4 Covid shots, and thought all ok. But then I developed an accelerating form of neurological disease which is still under evaluation, and my consultant neurologist asked me in detail about the timing of the vaccines, and she is strongly of the opinion that they triggered my progression of disability, and said that she and her colleagues have been reporting an upsurge in autoimmune neurological conditions, which seem to relate to the timing of vaccines, with subtle symptoms reported to commence about 2 weeks post a booster vax

odyssey06 · 03-04-2023 03:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434397#Comment_120434397

The risks have not proven to be higher for many groups. Your statement is false and without foundation.

You are using the current state of play - a highly vaccinated population with Omicron in circulation - to rewrite history in an utterly disingenuous way. Just because the vaccines would not be recommended in that situation for certain groups in 2023 does not and cannot retrospectively invalidate what was done in 2021.

The vaccines were rolled out in a population that was not highly vaccinated and Delta was in circulation.

odyssey06 · 03-04-2023 03:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434949#Comment_120434949

That's a difficult situation... I hope you are getting the best of care.

One question - you may not know answer or want to discuss further, no worries.

When you say "triggered progression of disability", did they explain that to you as something that was there dormant and 'triggered' by the vaccine? And in other people may have been triggered by another event such as infection or accident?

AerLingus747 · 03-04-2023 04:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435530#Comment_120435530

Also add to that... the vaccines pretty much eradicated the original strain (which is was designed to do) and pretty much eradicated the Alpha variant also, with very good results against the delta variant...

To say it wasn't a successful vaccine is just outright dis-ingenious.

03-04-2023 05:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435951#Comment_120435951

This is incorrect, what actually happened was that as each variant came along, it simply out-competed the previous variant to become dominant in each wave, the vaccine did NOT eradicate any variant. each variant was replaced by another one. Alpha had already replaced the original Wuhan variant before the vaccines even left the factory.

03-04-2023 10:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435564#Comment_120435564

Therein lies the mystery, I reported that I had subtle symptoms going back decades, so obviously I very likely have an underlying issue. She seemed to be saying that in those who have a vulnerability the Covid vax challenges the immune system to accelerate symptoms, and she pointed to booster shots seeming to be the trigger.

It’s a very complex situation, I knew in the oast couple of months I had symptoms I couldn’t quite ignore, and then I had a bad fall at home, ending up knocking myself out, waking up in a pool of blood and unable to move any limb at all for sone time. Thought I’d broken my neck and would be found well decomposed after somebody got worried that I wasn’t replying to texts! 😱

I had to accept I could no longer function normally and took myself in a taxi to Blackrock ED, where they admitted me for 2 weeks and did lots of tests. However the previous resident neurologist had left and not been replaced, and I had previously attended him for something that seemed unrelated, and he touched abnormalities in brain MRI and wanted me followed up, but then he left and seemingly scans he had ordered and which were taken at the Beacon have disappeared into the the ether.

The admitting general medicine consultant had to call in a visiting neurologist from another hospital, she was hot onto Covid vaccines playing a part in an upsurge in neurological symptoms that she and her colleagues are encountering. She mentioned present scan being consistent in appearance with MS but that it can only be diagnosed by mapping at minumum of two subsequent scans and that it can take further scans to make a definitive diagnosis. There are, of course, other autoimmune mediated similar conditions, so will take further tests to evaluate, and I’m to be followed up by the neurologist at her extremely busy clinic.

AerLingus747 · 04-04-2023 08:40AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436164#Comment_120436164

given COVID was suppressed for a period of time in the UK right after the vaccine rollout, before they opens back up boarders again which allow Delta and Omicron variants to enter, proves your theory is false

Markus Antonius · 04-04-2023 01:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435951#Comment_120435951

To say that it was the vaccine that eradicated each of those covid variants is outright disingenious. The dogs on the street know that it was Omicron that defeated covid and the governments and vaccine manufacturers were sure to be there to take the credit for it.

Here's the timeline that proves this:

-2020 Covid hits

~May-Sep 2021: Vaccine rollout

17 Dec 2021: Government announce lockdown due to unprecedented cases/hospital/ICU figures

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/4174f-new-public-health-measures-announced-friday-17-december/

19 Dec 2021: Omicron becomes dominant strain

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/03d57-statement-from-the-national-public-health-emergency-team-sunday-19-december

21 Jan 2022: "Ireland drops most Covid restrictions in wake of Omicron Storm"

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/ireland-set-rapidly-drop-almost-all-covid-19-restrictions-2022-01-21/

odyssey06 · 04-04-2023 01:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439040#Comment_120439040

Your cherry picked time line leaves a lot out.

Nowhere does your linked article state that "Government announce lockdown due to unprecedented cases/hospital/ICU figures."

The government had started the process of lifting restrictions coming to Autumn of 2021 before Omicron hit. And the reason why we went into lockdown in December 2021 was because of uncertainty about Omicron's severity. If we waited 2 weeks to impose restrictions and Omicron turned out to be severe \ escape vaccine protection versus severe covid it would be too late.

If you look at what happened in Hong Kong when Omicron hit a large group of unvaccinated vulnerable demographic, you will see that vaccines played an essential role in ending the restrictions without significant loss of life.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-61586600

04-04-2023 01:28PM

Cawlurs, I’m tucked into the snuggest, most luxurious bed in a giant hotel room, overlooking a picturesque lake.

View from my room.

and especially for Ray Darcy, an even most complex button controlled loo. He’d end up a very wet, powdered, wind-blown man at the end of the chosen procedure.

04-04-2023 01:32PM

Vaccinated people have different "long covid" symptoms than unvaccinated.

I think that it is these reports that "[Deleted User]" neurologist's are looking at.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/neurology/longcovid/103708?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Patients with functional neurologic disorder (FND) after SARS-CoV-2 infection had different symptoms than people with FND after COVID vaccines, retrospective data showed.

Patients with post-COVID FND tended to be older, had more insidious onset, and had higher disability, according to Araceli Alonso-Canovas, MD, PhD, of Hospital Universitario Ramón y Cajal in Madrid, and co-authors.

Those with FND after COVID vaccination more closely resembled classic FND: they were younger, had an acute onset, and tremor was the most common phenotype, the researchers reported in Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery & Psychiatryopens in a new tab or window.

Markus Antonius · 04-04-2023 02:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439065#Comment_120439065

Nowhere does your linked article state that "Government announce lockdown due to unprecedented cases/hospital/ICU figures.

Of course it was because of unprecedented cases, do you think they were doing it for the fun of it?

The government had started the process of lifting restrictions coming to Autumn of 2021 before Omicron hit. And the reason why we went into lockdown in December 2021 was because of uncertainty about Omicron's severity

This is absolutely not true. There were over 3000 daily cases on the friday that they reintroduced restrictions. Omicron only made up 33% of those:

https://web.archive.org/web/20211217195701/https%3A//www.independent.ie/news/cases-will-break-all-records-pubs-and-restaurants-to-close-at-8pm-as-part-of-new-restrictions-until-january-30-41159555.html

>>mod snip<<

@Marcus Antonius discuss the topic inline with the Charter and without accusations of shilling or about posters needing to be spoon-fed information because a poster doesn't agree with you.

HS

patnor1011 · 04-04-2023 03:59PM

Just accept that Omicron was the covid-killer and stop shilling for the government/vaccine manufacturers.

On a lighter note Omicron was not only covid-killer, it seems it also become a profit-killer.

How could anyone claim vaccines eradicated covid is a mystery since they were unable to prevent infection or transmission and were only supposedly good at reducing symptoms - and even that worked for some people and did not worked for the other people.

patnor1011 · 04-04-2023 04:25PM

Even the fiercest vaccine advocates started to be hesitant about recommending boosters. Remember Dr Paul Offit?

In April 2021, Offit had this to say about the mRNA jabs:

Certainly, no one would have predicted that these mRNA vaccines would have worked as well or been as safe as they are… I don’t think you could have devised a vaccine that appears to be more perfect.

Less than two years later, Offit rejected more doses of those “perfect” vaccines.

For everyone. Even the immunocompromised.

But even more stunning than Offit’s rejection were the words he used:

“Given the lack of data, I don’t think it’s fair to say to people, ‘Inject yourself with a biological agent,’” said Dr. Paul Offit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/24/health/covid-booster-older-immunocompromised.html

(article is behind paywall but quick google will offer several ways how to solve this and read it)

odyssey06 · 04-04-2023 04:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440015#Comment_120440015

Well, if he thinks the orginals are perfect and do an effective job... that would be a factor in not recommending boosters.

What is his position on whether to be vaccinated at all?

I suspect strongly in favour.

odyssey06 · 04-04-2023 08:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439562#Comment_120439562

I explained why they did it... precaution for the surge expected from Omicron which had already started and there was uncertainty about its impact. Nowhere did I say anything about doing it for the fun and no in good faith reading of my post could interpret it that way. An obvious attempt at deflection.

And if you look at another highly vaccinated country such as Denmark they did not lockdown for Omicron. Same vaccines and viruses there but their health service in better shape to run the risk. We had no margin for error if Omicron panned out badly.

And if you actually look at Hong Kong and not just ignore it as you are trying transparently to do - it is clear why vaccines were needed even versus Omicron.

There is abundant established evidence on this thread of the effectiveness of vaccines versus severe covid, including severe covid from Omicron.

AerLingus747 · 04-04-2023 08:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439040#Comment_120439040

no, what's disingenuous is your cherrypicked timeline with Irish centric events and mapping it as to what happened on a global scale.

Markus Antonius · 04-04-2023 09:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441247#Comment_120441247

Nothing cherrypicked about it. That's the timeline and you are more than welcome to insert whatever you think I'm omitting that proves the vaccines cured covid. It should be easy to show how the ever virtuous governments and bleeding heart vaccine manufacturers came to save us from the tyranny of this once in 100 year naturally occurring virus 🙄

BoxcarWilliam99 · 04-04-2023 11:22PM

Luke O'Neill lied repeatedly on TV and radio regarding vaccines

Leo Varadkar and Michael Martin both lied numerous times about same.

Trump lied intentionally or not

Biden lied intentionally or not

Fauchi lied intentionally or not

Many media heads wrote and spoke untruths during the pandemic .

Not everyone believes everything the talking box in the corner tells them .

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/varadkar-says-5pc-unvaccinated-causing-a-lot-of-the-trouble-in-covid-fight-41065615.html

Fighting Tao · 05-04-2023 07:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441935#Comment_120441935

The main point in that article is that 5% of the population were taking up 50% of the ICU beds occupied due to having Covid. So the other 95% of the population were responsible for the other 50% and that is for having Covid, and any other illness/injury that required ICU treatment.

So where is the lie in that 5% of the population is “causing a lot of the trouble”?

BoxcarWilliam99 · 05-04-2023 07:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442236#Comment_120442236

Leo said we wouldn't have restrictions if everyone was vaccinated. Lies

We were told lie after lie by the likes of Luke O'Neill and co.

Pure bluffers.

I believe he himself went onto to have 2 full doses and multiple boosters and caught COVID 3 or 4 times anyway .

His Twitter feed from 2020 through 2021 is a wall of pseudo science and false claims .

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1376972312487006219?s=20

We now know that this is completely false.

What other data about vaccinations and long term effects will we eventually discover to also be false.

patnor1011 · 05-04-2023 07:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441247#Comment_120441247

Your argument might be applicable with a little twisting and creativity if you stick to Irish centric events but is completely moot when used on global scale. There are plenty of countries which did little to none covid vax so according to your logic they should be swamped and ravaged with covid (they are not obviously).

odyssey06 · 05-04-2023 08:26AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442241#Comment_120442241

This is blatant misrepresentation.

What he said was:

“Unfortunately, the 5pc that are not are causing a lot of the trouble, about 5pc are not fully vaccinated but about 50pc of people in hospital and ICU are not fully vaccinated. So even that 5pc can create an awful lot of difficulty,” he said.

Mr Varadkar said he hopes more restrictions will not be imposed before Christmas. He said the situation on further restrictions will be assessed in “two weeks’ time”.

“But what I would say to people who are not vaccinated, 5pc of our population is unvaccinated and if everyone was vaccinated, we wouldn’t be imposing the restrictions we are now.

You have entirely failed to show how this was a 'lie' - which meant at the time he knew it to be untrue. You haven't even tried to make that case. Nowhere in the linked Irish Independent article does it discuss the position that this was a lie; linking it with your comments is misrepresentation and creates a completely misleading impression.

You haven't even shown that when the claim was made at the time, it was false based on the best available information. Or even that it was false at the time! When those statements were made, for the vaccination versus pre-Omicron variants, there was blocking immunity. Subsequently it was found that the immunity waned over time. But that was the basis on which the statements were made.

Fighting Tao · 05-04-2023 09:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442241#Comment_120442241

How can I even try to read past your first sentence when it contradicts itself??? If you can’t even get your first point correct, then no one will take the rest of your post seriously

Was everyone vaccinated? No, therefore it can be a lie.

05-04-2023 10:21AM

Well the proof in the effectiveness of the vaccines can simply be seen by the numbers of vaccinated people who caught omicron, after assurances by certain people that they were "safe and effective" and that we had to get vaccinated to avoid the spread and to protect others.

Politicians (& media outlets) were the source of most of the misinformation!

odyssey06 · 05-04-2023 10:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442778#Comment_120442778

Your statement is false and misleading on multiple counts.

For one thing, when some of those statements were made, Omicron didn't exist yet. So it is a fundamentally deceptive argument, and an attempt at rewriting history. The statements were made in good faith based on the best available information at the time - and the data showed they provided significant protection against infection and transmission for the variants then in circulation. There's also studies showing that vaccinated people to be less infectious than unvaccinated even if the infection breaks through.

Secondly, the effectiveness of the vaccines are judged in several ways. Protection against infection is one measure. But also protection against severe covid and death. This protection has been demonstrated in study after study, to be more durable than that versus infection only and to hold up verus Omicron.

If you want to talk about misinformation, have a scan back over the thread and boards for some of utterly false and baseless anti vax allegations made against vaccines.

Dohnjoe · 05-04-2023 11:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442816#Comment_120442816

99% of the arguments here boil down to the individual not understanding that the virus mutates.

And a misunderstanding of the word immunity. Resistance to the disease, not "permanent invulnerability".

AerLingus747 · 05-04-2023 12:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442242#Comment_120442242

it's not really when you marry up vaccination rates, case count and geographical area... for your point to stand everyone would need to be equal and everywhere would need to be exposed to infection at the same time... you're marrying up correlation without causation support...

a bit like saying people in Fiji didn't get the vaccine or COVID, but it was rampant in Ireland, hence the vaccine doesn't work.... where people in Fiji may never have even been exposed to it in the first place...

everyone wants an easy answer, where its not so straight forward

Covid vaccines - thread banned users in First Post

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