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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Herring is number 3 in that position. No doubt



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Nope.

    Going back to the OP, the comparison is with regards their respective athleticism.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    So...can I can I compare Coombes with Keenan? What's the point exactly?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Loughman has a great chance. He's a big unit, strong scrummager and is coming into his prime. Kilcoyne, after a decent 6nations has been poor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I could see Milne getting ahead of Kilcoyne, who's only ever been a journeyman at best. Munster haven't had a decent prop in about 10 years



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    There'd be far more crossover in terms of requried athleticism between half-backs than there would for a No.8 and a FB.

    If people want to discuss that, I don't see the issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Milne should have his chance for game time in South Africa. But hard to see him play any knockout games barring injury to Porter or healy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,381 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    This popped up in my feed earlier today. Only player from my local club to get a cap for Ireland. Definitely a blast from the past, some of the clips in it.




  • Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭bingobango12


    Can’t see Coombes travelling bar an injury. Will likely take 5 back rows in POM VDF Doris Conan & Baird as a hybrid. Even then I’d personally take Prendergast and then Penny before Coombes.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Beirne as a hybrid too so I think the 5 you've listed are exactly who will go, fitness permitting. Interesting to see if (and when) there are injuries, who'll get called up.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Open to correction but I would suspect a scrum half covers vastly more ground over the course of a game than an outhalf. A bunch of Leinster players were interviewed earlier in the season and when asked who was the fittest in the squad quite a few named JGP as having a serious engine (a few mentioned Keenan also).

    I would suspect in most settled teams the scrum half has a higher scoring rate than the out half but on the wider point of athleticism I'd agree that Casey is a good deal more athletic than Byrne, but also needs to be more athletic as a 9 regardless.

    Going forward individually ball in hand Casey is going to be more of a threat, defensively Byrne is more likely to gain parity in contact with a forward but ultimately both are in some way limited, whether under the heading of athleticism or size.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    The SH obviously has to cover more ground than virtually anyone given they have to be at basically every single ruck in attack and will often take on a sweeper role in defence. They also touch the ball probably 3 or 4 times more than the OH in a game and an order of magnitude more than any other player outside of the 10.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I'd say to be considered a truly 'athletic' player you'd have to be the kind of person who, if you weren't playing rugby, would excel at another sport.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To me, 'athletic' is a combination of a lot of things: speed - over short bursts and longer distances, strength, endurance / aerobic capacity / engine, instincts, coordination, mobility, flexibility, resistance to injury etc.

    Ross Byrne's big deficiency as an athlete is his very sub-optimal pace. He grades out pretty well on the other metrics I've listed there.

    Craig Casey's big deficiency is his size.

    I think when you assess the athletic profile of Irish rugby players, guys like Dan Sheehan, Ryan Baird, Caelan Doris, Josh van der Flier, Garry Ringrose, Hugo Keenan and Andrew Porter all have exceptional athletic profiles in my opinion.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    One thing I'm interested to see, is whether we pick another "specialist" 7 to back up Josh, or whether POM travels as the backup 7. Josh was the only "specialist" 7 named in the original 6N squad, so that would indicate that the coaches are leaning towards POM covering 7 at the RWC. Which is bad news for Timoney, Penny and Hodnett.

    It seems to me that if Baird travels as one of the 4 locks, the 5th back row spot is Prendergast's. But if Baird travels as one of the 5 backrows or a hybrid, the 4th lock spot is between Treadwell and McCarthy.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    That's what we went with in 2019 as well (Jordi Murphy later being called in for Conan) so would expect similar here. You'd imagine part of that is because VdF (touchwood) has been pretty bulletproof for the most part so hopefully will remain the case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    I guess that depends on how fit and in form Connors is....he is the one player I think they could bring into the existing squad and make a huge difference



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    In which case, if VDF was to get injured, our backrow would be 6.Doris 7.POM 8.Conan or 6.Baird/Beirne/Prendergast 7.POM 8.Doris

    I'd probably lean towards Baird at 6.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think the way it looks, we're going to bring 5 BRs, and at the moment the Irish mgmt don't consider any of the contenders in the 7 shirt good enough to justify a spot.

    The options are probably Scott Penny, Nick Timoney, Will Connors and John Hodnett. The first three have been in camps (though not recently in Connors' case), and Timoney and Connors are capped.

    Of the 4, the closest in style to me is probably Timoney, but his form has been hot and cold this season.

    Connors hasn't played a lot of rugby, and is a clear third choice at Leinster at present. At the moment, it's hard to see him featuring in big games for Leinster before season end, but maybe the SA tour will serve as a chance for him to play himself back into form and contention.

    Hodnett hasn't been in a squad (apart from the EI tour), and, for me, has been poor the last two weekends, when the Munster back row have been comprehensively outplayed. Some of it is the way Munster seem to use him - he spends a lot of time waiting in wide channels, where tbf he can carry impactfully, but to me you don't see enough of him at breakdown.

    Penny might have a big opportunity this week if JvdF can't go against Leicester. He was called into the squad in 6N, and will be opposite a good Leicester backrow. He has the best chance of staking a claim I think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    33 man squad for RWC, so breakdown of that probably will be:

    19 Forwards: 9 front rows, 4 second rows, 6 back rows.

    14 backs: 3 scrum-halves, 3 out-halves, 4 centres, 4 back-threes.

    The above would mean at least one of the back-rows must be able to cover as a lock, e.g. Baird, Prendergast, Coombes

    Also one of the half-backs must be able to cover as an outside back, e.g. Crowley, Carbery

    All fit I'd go with this:

    LHP: Porter, Loughman, Healy/Kilcoyne, HK: Sheehan, Kelleher, Herring, THP: Furlong, Bealham, O'Toole,

    LHL: Beirne, Henderson, THL: Ryan, McCarthy,

    BF: O'Mahony, Baird, N8: Doris, Conan, OF: Van der Flier, plus 1 of Prendergast, Timoney, Coombes, Connors and Penny.

    SH: Gibson-Park, Murray, Casey,

    OH: Sexton, Byrne, plus 1 of Crowley or Carbery,

    CE: 12 Aki, McCloskey, 13 Ringrose, Henshaw,

    B3: Lowe, Keenan, Hansen, plus 1 of O'Brien, Larmour, Stockdale or Baloucoune.

    Outside of that there are a few guys that would get in through injury: Stewart or Heffernan, Salanoa or John Ryan, Blade, H Byrne, Hume or Frisch (Unlikely as no time in camp yet).

    I may have left someone out though, this is off the top of my head.

    Conway and Earls are very outside bets at this stage considering other options and lack of game time this season.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Why didn't they just make the squads 34 instead of 33 while they were at it? Then you wouldn't have to compromise on a prop, back five of the pack player, half or back three player.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


     plus 1 of Crowley or Carbery,

    I wouldn't rule Frawley out of this conversation either. He's had so little game time but Farrell really seems to rate him.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'd largely be in agreement, but a few points:

    Healy is nailed on presuming he's fit. His performance against Scotland and ability to cover both sides of the scrum make him invaluable. I'd say it's between Loughman and Kilcoyne for the last spot, and Kilcoyne's form surely has him trending downward.

    Ciaran Frawley could yet be in the mix as the 10 option who can cover the back three and midfield (same as Crowley & Carbery).

    I think JOB is a notch higher than Larmour, Stockdale and Baloucoune at present, though this could change.

    Jamie Osborne would be in the mix of guys who could feature through injury to others - his versatility alone here would make him invaluable. He has a higher chance right now than Frisch definitely and probably Hume as well (given Osborne was in the 6N squad and Hume wasn't).

    Other options / bolters for me, though very outside chance: Michael Milne (more because of issues others are having in the position), Calvin Nash (I think his skillset would fit well in this Irish side) and Harry Sheridan (in the Joe McCarthy role).



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Healy can cover all of the front row!! :)

    Agree on all your points too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Agree entirely, 34 would be better, in my example break-down above I would then be able to add one more back 3 player to round out the squad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I'd agree with most of that. Not sure if mccarthy is locked in. Just simply due of lack of game time this year.

    Also I wouldn't have casey as a certinity. He is trending downwards.

    I still have Doak as a potential bolter.

    I'd agree 34 man panel would be easier. But I suppose that's the idea. The bigger the panels the easier it is for the larger nations against the minnows.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Also I wouldn't have casey as a certinity. He is trending downwards.

    I’d disagree tbh. He wasn’t great the last day, but Munster had so little ruck protection, you could’ve had DuPont playing and I’m not sure it would’ve made much difference.

    Whereas over the last 12 months, he’s established himself as Munster’s first choice 9, is crucial to our new attacking gameplan and has significantly improved his kicking.

    And he’s been consistently Ireland’s 3rd choice in that time.

    Post edited by aloooof on


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