General Irish politics discussion thread

Francis McM · 04-04-2023 2:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439277#Comment_120439277

What are those who control SF doing retaining weapons. You initially said " weapon retention is to keep them out of the hands of dissidents." That claim was shot down (please excuse the pun).

Now you claim it it because "they did not trust the police for a long time after the signing of the GFA". Why not? It was a new police force, the PSNI. The Gardai are the police force of the state. Ordinary law abiding citizens of both states trust both.

In the troubles the PIRA killed 6 Gardai as well as 312 British law enforcement personnel: 270 Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officers, 14 former RUC officers, 20 Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) officers, 2 former NIPS officers, and 6 English police officers. Over 9,000 police were injured during the existence of the RUC. By comparison, extremely few IRA were killed by the Police. So why did the IRA not trust everyone after the GFA to the extent it lied to people about its weapons / held on to some? And how many is some? 100? 500? 1000?

You wrote ""they did not trust the police for a long time after the signing of the GFA"....I wonder if they still do not trust the police, if they still retain weapons "to keep them out of the hands of dissidents". After the GFA, did they think the police were going to hand them to dissidents? Will dissidents be able to uncover them, accidentally or on purpose, in the future? Should they not have been decommissioned, same as they said they were? All of the prisoners got let out: one side did not keep some because they did not trust the other side.

Anyway, thanks for your insight, and you should know. I did not know those who control SF retained weapons.

Seth Brundle · 04-04-2023 2:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438912#Comment_120438912

You originally provided vague details about something being reported upon sometime recently. I asked you for sources to confirm what you alleged.

However I do think you claimed this was printed recently in one of your posts - articles om this topic from 2015 aren't recent (whatever about ones from 2020).

FrancieBrady · 04-04-2023 2:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439514#Comment_120439514

Didn't read past this.

You initially said: weapon retention is to keep them out of the hands of dissidents.

I did NOT say this, I quoted the primary source - the government report.

I gave an opinion on why weapons might have been retained in the first place.

There is zero evidence from the ACTUAL monitoring bodies that the small amount of weapons were retained to continue the military campaign against the state.

It's up to you whether you think it is valid reason (self protection in the absence of a police force (proven to have been involved in collusion) that could be trusted or not.)

Podge_irl · 04-04-2023 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439020#Comment_120439020

Even in purely political terms, the PAC having an "overarching strategy" for Sinn Fein is not exactly open and transparent democracy.

Francis McM · 04-04-2023 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439524#Comment_120439524

I supplied the links to no fewer than 4 sources ( Irish Times. Guardian, Newsletter and Newstalk). 3 of the 4 were in 2020. All agreed with what I said without the links i.e (and I quote the post in full) "There were reports in the Irish Times and the Guardian etc in the not too distant past that said both the Garda and MI5 say Sinn Fein is still run by the IRA. I am not saying if they were right or wrong. I know nothing."

3

FrancieBrady · 04-04-2023 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439595#Comment_120439595

Or the PAC and SF are of the same opinion and the strategy is the same. Same as any political party they want to be in power. They want to implement the GFA and they want to achieve a UI.

blanch152 · 04-04-2023 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439524#Comment_120439524

Anytime that they have been asked over the last half-decade, the PSNI have said that they believe the command structure is still in place and that Sinn Fein answer to the PIRA. The links provided by @Francis McM back this up. The Gardai have also said anytime that they have been asked that they believe the same.

That would signal that the burden of proof should shift. If Sinn Fein are no longer controlled by the PIRA, those who so claim should be asked to produce their evidence (and Mary-Lou saying it is not proof enough)

Francis McM · 04-04-2023 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439579#Comment_120439579

OK, fair enough. You did not use the word "might" in your earlier post. Nevertheless, it is interesting the IRA retained weapons. I thought - as did most other people I would assume who voted for the GFA - that the IRA had surrendered all its arms / semtex etc / had them put beyond use by the authorities? As asked earlier, why should it be use to one arm of the secret IRA to decide behind everyone's backs to keep some of its weapons out of the hands of another arm of the secret IRA who it does not currently agree with?

As regards collusion, sure there was Garda collusion with the IRA, as found in the Smithwick tribunal etc, but surely could illegal arms not have been handed in? IN N.I too there was collusion, SF publicised the fact that the police had warned their leaders’ lives were under threat. Where did the police get this information? From informants? From informants involved in criminal, possibly terrorist, activity? Did the Sinn Féin leadership ask before condemning ‘RUC/PSNI collusion’? Come to think of it, according to O’Loan’s definition of collusion, the RUC must have colluded also with the IRA, the INLA and all the rest down the years. There were thousands jailed from both sides. But after the GFA arms could still have been handed in.

FrancieBrady · 04-04-2023 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439847#Comment_120439847

Again, you need to read source/primary materials.

Read the Final decommissioning reports which goes into all of this and the reasons why some groups could not guarantee all arms had been decommissioned.

Way off topic here, so if you wish to discuss further please open a new thread.

beggars_bush · 04-04-2023 5:15pm

2 billion surplus in first quarter for Ireland

We should just start building that feckin metro now while the money is there

Francis McM · 04-04-2023 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440207#Comment_120440207

I think paying off a bit of our national debt may be more prudent.

€192.3 billion was the national debt in 2021. Ireland's public debt increased to €226bn last year and now stands at €44,000 for every person (man, womam,child) in the country.....one of the highest per capita debt burdens in the world.

A report earlier in 2023 from the Department of Finance shows the debt burden is well above the EU average of €30,288 per person and just behind Belgium with the highest in the EU at €50,136. Bulgaria, with debt of €2,705 per person is the lowest.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41063822.html

Water John · 04-04-2023 6:01pm

Govn't debt is not the same as private debt. Absolute waste of resources to bury any tax surplus in lowering it a little.

FrancieBrady · 04-04-2023 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440407#Comment_120440407

Plenty of holes it could and should be used to fill, as they say.

hotmail.com · 04-04-2023 6:47pm

Heather Humphries told The Ditch publication to "**** off and leave me alone" after enquires about her property.

https://www.ontheditch.com/heather-humphreys/

Sam Russell · 04-04-2023 9:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438677#Comment_120438677

Most of your post is a slanted view of the timescale of events.

The imposition of customs duties on Cork produced tractors (Fordson) meant that it became uneconomic to produce them in Cork - so British action crippled the Cork plant. It continued but the Dagenham factory was built in 1931 under pressure from the British Gov. What happened after 1931 is irrelevant. Your snipe at the quality of production of Sierras is an example of the slant of your post (and your other posts)

It was the Irish Gov view that the annuities were due to the Irish Gov rather than the British Gov. The British Gov demanded that Ireland take their share of the British National Debt that the Irish Gov had no part in. The Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed under threat of 'immediate and terrible war'. Hardly an agreement between equals.

Podge_irl · 05-04-2023 9:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439724#Comment_120439724

Who are the PAC and how do I contact them to engage in advocacy?

Does this "overarching strategy" come with powers of enforcement within the SF structure? Is the leader of SF beholden to this strategy?

They are clearly not the same as any political party.

FrancieBrady · 05-04-2023 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442659#Comment_120442659

I agree they are not the same, but then they all have differing ways of running their parties. I am not naive enough to believe that there are non elected people with influence on all parties - advisors, vested interests etc etc, it's as old as politics tbh.

If I was a member I would want to know the answers to your questions. I'm not, so just like I look at how other parties behave I look at how SF behave and I don't have any major concerns tbh

They said they would stand down the IRA and all would move into democratic politics. I'm satisfied they have done that. Is the overarching strategy something I object to?

Not as yet. If they reveal something I can't buy, my vote switches, same as I switched from FG when their New Politics scam unravelled, simple as that.

Podge_irl · 05-04-2023 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442747#Comment_120442747

They said they would stand down the IRA and all would move into democratic politics. I'm satisfied they have done that

I'm more or less aligned with Peregrinus' point on this - I still don't care for them as an institution and wouldn't vote for them but I acknowledge that obviously they have moved to a political approach and so deserve their place in that space. So I won't be mentioning the Troubles or anything along those lines. Their strategy clearly extends beyond simply the GFA agreement though - as it should given they want to be in charge of the country.

I know what the FF and FG rules are for electing their leadership (I don't particularly agree with them, but I know what they are). I know how they remove leadership. None of this is remotely clear when it comes to SF. Just the very nature of them only having 2 leaders spanning the last 40 years is deeply unusual - it represents either surprising unity of purpose, unusually strong party discipline or a democratic deficit in how the leadership is chosen. Democracies by their nature tend to be messy, and while such a significant outlier is not impossible it is unusual. And there is also a significant difference between influence and power when it comes to unelected figures.

It is not necessary to be a member of a party to have a pretty significant interest in this as it could easily impact who the Taoiseach of the country is and to whom they are beholden. I rather expect that SF almost definitely will be in power in the next 2 election cycles so its a salient concern.

Podge_irl · 05-04-2023 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440207#Comment_120440207

I think the only real danger for the Metro at this point is an election before it begins construction. They can't speed up the process much more at this point (though this could segue into a discussion on underfunding of ABP)

Francis McM · 05-04-2023 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441583#Comment_120441583

Not that slanted, every fact I posted was true. It is funny you are blaming the British for closing the Ford plant in Cork, when it was the British who helped set up the plant in Cork, who bought engines etc off it for their Dagenham plant etc. There were lots of reasons for the Cork plant to close, not least of which it was losing ten million pounds a year ( about 100 million in todays value?). There were great stories coming out of Cork back in the day. For example " There were also a few perks if you knew someone who worked in the factory. The story goes that you could order a basic car from your local dealer and then tip off your friend that it'd be coming down the line. Thus, even though the basic badges of a low-spec trim would be applied, your friend on the line would sneak something like a Lotus-developed twin-cam engine and full leather interior into your "base model" car. It pays to have friends." Do not take my word for it. That was in :

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a7377/forgotten-history-of-ford-factory-in-cork-ireland/

The real reason Ford closed in Ireland is best told by Ford themselves. When Ireland joined the EEC in 1973, many car assembly plants in Ireland decided to close their doors, including Fiat and British Leyland, as their initial purpose (to avoid import tax imposed on cars imported into Ireland) was going to be avoided as that tax was to be lifted in 1985. Ford, however, stayed for the time being due to the heritage and connection to Cork. But clouds were looming on the horizon for the plant, as most cars made at the Marina plant from then would have been exported to western Europe, and by the 1980s, The plant had losses of IR£10m each year. The plant was finishing 400 cars a week, compared to Fords Genk plant in Belgium churning out over 6,000 cars a week.

Look on the bright side, Cork got a word class car brand manufacturing there for much of the 20th century, and Fords first overseas factory. And all started by someone from Ballinascarty, County Cork, where the Ford family emigrated from in 1832 after living in Cork for over 300 years.

We will never know if Ford's plans to further expand the Ford factory in the early 20's were shelved because of the murder by the IRA of thirteen innocent Protestants in West Cork in April 1922, some of whose families were known to the Fords having lived not too far away.

I still think there should be a Cork Ford museum or something to help attract tourism, we are missing a trick there. It was joked Ford was a Cork car brand with a large American division. If you want to set up a thread on the economic war, that is another subject.

FrancieBrady · 05-04-2023 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442942#Comment_120442942

While I am not a member of SF, I would know most of the local party members. They are a committed bunch and the idea that they could be led or ordered to have certain opinions by a politburo style elite just doesn't tally with me.

Are you suggesting that they will install one of these 'unelected's' as Taoiseach one day? I think that is rather a fabulous leap tbh, as it would alienate a huge amount of support.

It would be a shortlived stay in power, in other words. Unless they establish a police state/military junta.

To me, a much simpler explanation is that SF are a product of what they have come through and have an aversion to being too transparent, particularly the northern branch. I think that will diminish as the conflict/war participants die out.

blanch152 · 05-04-2023 12:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442954#Comment_120442954

Agreed, that is a real worry.

A future government involving some of the opposition parties will need an awful lot of money to deliver on their wild promises. Cancelling the Metro and/or the DART projects on relatively spurious grounds will be one easy source of that money.

Podge_irl · 05-04-2023 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443049#Comment_120443049

Are you suggesting that they will install one of these 'unelected's' as Taoiseach one day?

How was McDonald elected into her position?

I believe at least that I am quite consistent on this. I do not like membership having a say on the leader of the parliamentary party for pretty much the same reason - to me it should be elected members only. When those who select the leader who may be Taoiseach are not beholden even tangentially to the electorate it removes an element of democratic validity.

Sam Russell · 05-04-2023 10:06pm

No SF leader has been elected to date. Gerry Adams, who was never a member of the IRA 'emerged' as the leader of SF. Martin McGuinness also 'emerged' as the SF leader in the Assembly. MLMcD 'emerged' as leader of SF to replace GA. MO'N 'emerged' to be leader in NI.

Not one elected by anyone in public.

FrancieBrady · 05-04-2023 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445646#Comment_120445646

According to a member on here, branches nominate a leader, a process that goes to a vote ( if there is two or more emerging) at Ard Fheis. If there is only one then the Ard Fheis votes to ratify.

If you are elected to the Dàil then you are entitled to be the Taoiseach if voted for by a majority.

Ha Long Bay · 05-04-2023 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445878#Comment_120445878

What member on here is that and did they post this information publicly here?

How many branches are there? Who creates the list of leaders that the branch vote for?

You said " branches nominate a leader" so just trying to figure this part out.

Also if one branch nominates a leader how does this make them head of SF? Is there not a run off against the other nominated leaders from other branches?

FrancieBrady · 05-04-2023 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446024#Comment_120446024

If there is a frontrunner that name goes forward to Ard Fheis. That's what they said. Makes sense, even the edia had Mary Lou as the out and out favourite to succeed Adams

Truth is, I don't remember who posted it. But it seems kosher judging from this.

https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-nominations-3785915-Jan2018/

Ha Long Bay · 05-04-2023 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446073#Comment_120446073

So no answers to anything I posted? A link dump to a Journal article instead?

I thought you did your homework on who you vote for and know all the local volunteers after switching from voting for FG to SF so this should be a fairly easy one to explain.

What member on here as you previously stated gave you this information on SF leader election procedures that you wont now share?

FrancieBrady · 05-04-2023 11:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446107#Comment_120446107

You asked, who posted it...I don't remember. I'll do a search tomorrow and find the post.

What is it you want explained exactly?

The branches nominate. If there is a clear frontrunner that name goes to the Ard Fheis for ratification>

The Journal article seems to back that up.

P.S, I was voting for FG without knowing that their membership vote didn't count in leadership elections. I assume all is democratic or there is a process.

political analyst · 06-04-2023 1:11am

Obviously, people are frustrated with the current government but it's not as if the housing crisis can be resolved overnight - and they need not expect that Sinn Féin will work miracles if or when it gets into power here in the Republic.

General Irish politics discussion thread

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