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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose




  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    More are against than in favour. Others don't care either way



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Facts? Every attempt to increase aid to Ukraine by the current admin has succeeded. As they say here, anything presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is exactly what Putins war of attrition is about

    He knew the US would slowly get tired of the support and elections coming up soon as well.

    If US gives up,then everyone else will too

    If Ukraine doesnt soon have a counter offensive and succeed in it,i think this war will end negotiating about the remaining occupied areas.

    Ukraine only have one shot at this this spring/summer.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose



    That poll you quote says evenly divided on financial aid. So, no, not 'more'. Evenly divided doesn't equal 'more'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    "Americans are about evenly divided on sending government funds directly to Ukraine, with 37 percent in favor and 38 percent opposed, with 23 percent saying neither. The signs of diminished support for Ukraine come as President Joe Biden is set to travel to Poland next week

    38 is a higher number than 37. Americans in the majority don't support funds being sent to Ukraine .

    Just as I stated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭briany


    @[Deleted User]

    If US gives up,then everyone else will too

    Other countries won't have the luxury of giving up. Poland won't be giving up, Finland won't be giving up, the Baltics wouldn't be giving up, Sweden wouldn't be giving up. Basically, every country laying in any way east of the old Iron Curtain line has good cause to be wary of a Russia seeking to reassert its Cold War era sphere of influence and could not afford to sit back and let it happen.

    But this isn't even to mention that there are going to be a few times when what the military-industrial complex and what is morally correct align, and this is true in the case of Ukraine. Since that is one of the big money interests in the USA, they will have the lobbying power to ensure that aid to Ukraine continues, no matter who control the United States government. Additional to that, it remains that there is geo-political interest in the U.S. continuing to back Ukraine. A Ukraine which chases Russia out of its country, and becomes a member of the collective West would be a useful and relatively stable ally, especially after the rebuilding process was completed, and all of this achieved with no American soldiers deployed.

    So, if Putin is waiting for U.S. interest to wane over Ukraine, he may be waiting a while.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,540 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Was there a vote on this by something other than a twitter poll or whatever random numbers that you are allegedly quoting? As far as I know, the Americans didn't go to ballot so anything as close as 1% difference is meaningless. Give us links to something solid (and preferably not something that you pulled out of your backside)



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    A public poll by PBS. The article is linked.

    "Something you pulled out of your backside"

    🤔



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    LOL. Has been mentioned above, but many former soviet states will back Ukraine, including Poland/Finland in particular. They have no choice. Russia wants to invade them. They want to contain Russia in Ukraine.

    But, really, the fantasy that the US will pull back from supporting Ukraine is self delusion. The US expended far more in Afghanistan for at a lot less gain, with zero loss of life. This is the US military’s wet dream come true.

    If Putin is backing that the West will collapse support for Ukraine, he’s going to be dead wrong!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Doesnt matter they dont have the capability to provide this the same way as the US do,and they are in NATO and have no concerns regarding their own security.Poland and Finland and the Baltic states could continue,but it wont be enough in the long run.

    Lack of ammunition within NATO is also starting to show,something that should have been corrected years ago and cut on budgets are now starting to show,unfortunately.

    Taiwan and China is keeping US on their toes as well with budgets

    And we have election coming up in the US as well soon

    This will be Ukraines last chance,thats the reality,unfortunately



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I disagree (obviously). You’re forgetting Russia is a busted flush. I cannot foresee even a severely reduced from present support (I don’t see that happening) would mean that Ukraine will not defeat Russia… it will just take longer and may mean millions of lives lost on either side. Ukraine can not let Russia win or pause to allow Russia to regroup. Ukraine will keep fighting even if it takes years. Anyone that can conceive of their family members being raped being a bad thing knows this.

    Ukraine will not be without significant Western support.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭briany


    The U.S. who lets Ukraine go swing would be the same U.S. who becomes an unreliable ally in NATO ala Trump's wittering, so eastern European countries would have no choice but to step up, whatever that may take.

    NATO countries have more capacity to ramp up production of ammunition and other associated war materials than Russia does right now. They're not the ones going cap in hand to Iran, China and North Korea, as Russia are.

    The stuff which the U.S. gives to Ukraine is but a pittance in the grand scheme of their military industry. The U.S. could handle military aid to both Ukraine and Taiwan if the political (read:lobbyist) will is there, which it would be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe



    The Dem's will support Ukraine for as long it takes. The GOP's priority is to be contrarian to the Dem's, so if Trump or DeSantis were to win in 2024 I wouldn't be surprised to see them try to change the policy out of sheer spite.

    That said, DeSantis recently had to walk back remarks that the Russian invasion was a "territorial dispute", so there's still a chunk of the Republicans who aren't fully batshiat yet and still support Ukraine.

    A majority of Americans still support funding and arming Ukraine




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That is the reality,Ukraine can keep fighting and countries can continue supporting,but it will only be a small scale comparison to the US support.

    It will only end up like a another Vietnam or Afghanistan for Russia

    We have seen the support Ukraine have gotten allready since 2015,it didnt change much to the borders,it was only when the world united and supported Ukraine we seen results coming,after the invasion,and alot of this with US influence

    And even Germany starting to see the lack of military support in their own country,and low stocks on everything and lack of manpower and maintenance on their own equipment.

    US have started to focus on China,Iran and BRICS now as their biggest threats,and it will probably show in this year and next years budget.

    Only thing that can change this is a domestic war in Russia,Putin being removed,or the economy collapse.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You’re making a crucial error in your analysis. Ukraine was afraid to poke the mighty Russian bear. Turns out the Russian bear is one of those pathetic circus bears riding a tricycle having had their fangs removed.

    Ukraine is no longer afraid of mad Putin, and will continue to push against him regardless. But, I see no meaningful drop off in Western support.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Eastern Europe is still a ticking timebomb,with some countries allready westernized and some still hanging back in the soviet union era.

    Hungary,Bulgaria,Serbia,Moldova,Georgia,Belarus etc have still alot of Russian influence,some are EU/NATO members,some are not.

    NATO countries have alot of capacity to ramp up the production,if NATO goes to war,and they wont do it today without an order being put in and its being paid for,and who is going to pay for it?

    US can handle a war on two fronts if their allies are with them,alone they cant.

    And US have Russia,Iran,Syria and China to worry about right now,and a growing BRICS that will also effect their economic interests in the future.

    If Ukraines offensive doesnt succeed,and i am sure and hope it will,there will be negotiating at the end of this year



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭macraignil


    "This will be Ukraines last chance,thats the reality,unfortunately"

    Don't understand myself how you are drawing this conclusion. Ukraine needs to stop putin from destroying their country as they have tried to do since the invasion of last year and clearly stated is their aim so I see no situation where they stop fighting without putin and his influence being removed from their country. Any current backers of Ukraine who step away now will be committing political suicide as there will be a significant number of voters who see that doing so simply permits putin to carry on with his anti western empire building which is of no benefit to anyone.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That might be true,but as we have seen,Russia dont lack manpower and equipment to continue a war of attrition,Ukraine will if they lose support from the west,and US is a big part of this



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  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    The majority of Americans don't support giving cash to Ukraine.

    If government ignore the will of the people it's no different to Putin, Kim , Xi etc



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Problem with politics is that its great as long as it doesnt cost money and effect the people that vote for you.

    As we have seen in Afghanistan,Iraq,Syria and Vietnam

    Ukraines offensive will be the last chance,thats the reality

    And Russia have allready lost its influence world wide with their invasion and will take years to recover from it,Economically,Militarily and Politically.

    Thats the excuse they will use to cut the support



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭macraignil


    I think you need to check what the definition is for the term majority. Hint it's not 38% of an opinion poll.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,058 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    That might be the case in some conflicts but things have really gone too far in this case. There comes a point of no return. The challenge is how to manage this using conventional warfare and limiting spread to neighbouring states. This conflict is not going away and could blow up further.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭macraignil


    Costs money is one thing but an insignificant amount of money compared to GDP to help destroy a long standing enemy is another.




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭briany


    The Romanian part of Moldova (i.e. almost all of it) is highly pro-Western. Lukashenko had to whip out the AK and put on a pathetic show of strength to hold on to power a couple of years ago and Bulgaria have been supplying aid to Ukraine as well. Almost every country in Eastern Europe is not going to choose Russia if push comes to shove. Hungary might push NATO and the EU for concessions, but they know where their bread is buttered.

    Most NATO countries have not been in an officially declared war in a long time, yet their arms industries went on. Suffice it to say that they can ramp up arms production if the geo-political interest is there to do so. If funds are short to pay for this, the requisitioned billions upon billions of Russian assets can go a long way towards paying for this.

    I think the U.S. allies will stay with them on this one, especially in Europe where it is significantly more of an existential matter.

    The best way to slap BRICS down is to show them that aggressive military expansion isn't an option.

    All wars end in negotiations. Some are long and protracted. Some are 'sign this declaration of surrender'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,450 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Yes, but polls don't determine the will of the people - elections do. And, as you pointed out, there's a 1% 'edge' in a where financial aid isn't favored.


    Polls typically have 3% error for what that's worth. Fortunately polls are just that - opinions. And, the poll @Dohnjoe linked shows a majority of Americans favoring financial aid.


    Basically, other than troops, a majority of Americans favor aid to Ukraine in the forms polled. Financial support's actually not that close.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭BoxcarWilliam99


    You were all for the polls when you were using it for your point.

    It's not in your favour so ignore the polls.

    Makes it impossible to have open and honest discussion..

    I disagree



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui



    And...they're off. Maybe. He might be right and they are doing some preparatory groundwork while waiting for things to dry out a bit.

    10 Apr 2023, 11:47 AM

    The head of wagner group - a private paramilitary company that maintains relations with the Putin government - Yevgeny Prigozhin, said on Sunday that Ukraine has gathered more than 200,000 soldiers for an imminent counteroffensive against Russian forces.

    "They gathered about 200,000 people. Even almost 400,000, according to other calculations,'' the owner of the private military company said in a discussion with members of the Ciber Group Frente Z. ''The enemy is serious and has prepared for many years for what is happening now,'' Yevgeny Prigozhin said.

    As for the counteroffensive, Prigozhin said that it does not start because the authorities in Kiev are waiting for the land to dry up and the Western weapons will reach them.

    ''Wagner cannot win the war on his own. We must unite our efforts,'' Prigozhin said.




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Highly doubt it will go further,as even China have said they dont support Russia

    The point of no return will be the result of Ukraines offensive,if it succseed or not



This discussion has been closed.
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