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FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Waste of time.

    Article 40.1 states all citizens are equal but with firearms not a constitutional right it's a moot point.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭Zxthinger


    So every 10/22 and marlin out there will become restricted.. kinda defeats the ethos of have additional punitive storage requirments to deter the uptake of restricted items in the first place..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭Zxthinger


    Following on from page 8 of Report One (as found linked up near post 440)

    Did Former Minster Frances Fitzgerald introduce the following "immediate cap on licensing any new centre-fire -automatic rifles"

    I thought the cap would only be introduced if SACR became prolific in numbers..


    Also, can any point out how many SACR are currently licensed in the State.. tnx



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Well aren't you a little ray of sunshine! Basically it's back to what I was thinking previously.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    No cap was introduced, SACF are still licencable today.


    No number on SACF rifles, the dept has a rather dubious number of like 30 IIRC that are newly licensed since 2015, but as said that is a very dubious number as most of the gun related stats here are.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    The cap on SACR I 2015 was illegal without the legislation to enforce it. Her intent was to stop licensing to them back in 2015 but I'm assuming someone had a word in her ear saying the same and so new licenses were issued since 2015.

    As for numbers. I had a number of 167 back then but with sales, surrenders, and new licenses the number has changed and so it lies somewhere between 134 to 167.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,987 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    39 liscensed since 2015/22.And there are 89 in toto in the state since 2015/22.Offical response from Min Browne himself to a Dail question.So nothing"dubious"about it.They (DOJ)should know their own paperwork on how many of these they issued import certs for?So thems the offical govt deps figures.We work off those.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,987 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Pre 2015.The figure bandied about by the DOJ itself in the FEC discussions was less than 50!

    Either the DOJ has no reliable figures on how many are out there .Or that pre 2015 figure was made deliberately low to suggest and strengthen the "proliferation" stance/lie.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Just come out and say it ...


    I am. It's a tough job but someone has to keep up moral.

    The knowledge of firearms as NOT being a right is not new. We've been saying it for over a decade or more on this forum. The idea of it also being a form of discrimination has also been floated. However while it might hold a teaspoon of water compared to the constitutional argument it still falls short as the law does/will not discriminate based on age, race, religion, etc.

    I use such definite language so people don't get distracted by an argument that will not come to anything and waste time, effort and money trying to argue it when there are better points to consider.

    This fight will be long, drawn out and frustrating as hell because while we have to argue the safety record of shooting the counter argument is "won't someone think of the children" and factual arguments never measure up to moral ones.

    One of the better arguments I think we have is partially moral and partially data related. Why are legally held firearms being banned based on public safety?

    There has been no instances of public or mass shootings in this country so they have no data to support their position.

    If they cite the guns being used in crime then why are we being penalised for the actions of criminals as our own actions are no longer considered as factors but the actions of others that already "exist" outside the law.

    Lastly, if they say its to prevent such criminality then it's a preemptive attempt to stop crime that has not ever happened and akin to shutting banks to stop them being robbed, banning cars to prevent drink driving, etc, etc. In short it's a form of behaviour control which then flies in the face of consitutional rights, namely article 40.3.1 and 40.3.2 (although I believe it'll still be a stretch) .

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    In relation to the dubiousness part, I was under the impression that they were largely basing that number on dealer responses(of which there were not many useful ones, with several telling the dept that that was their(the dept's) job to know what was imported(valid point there!)) and a query from PULSE, so neither of which I would call particularly reliable given past figures from both in relation to firearms.


    I strongly suspect that <50 is utter rubbish, just based on the NASRPC disciplines that cover SACF rifles alone, and obviously that doesn't account for folks who don't attend those disciplines but have SACF licenced.


    89 total in the state seems like a madly low number(I know of 5 which were licenced in the past year and a half, all newly acquired firearms from outside the state and imported in), so my bet is seriously under reporting the numbers either through intent or inaccurate counts.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,987 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Be it as it may,as to whatever dubiousness we might believe them to be. They are the official figures from a department that has the responsibility for issuing the imports to this little country of ours.A minister has gone on record to say this it such in our parliament. So that's what we must fly with.Be it 39,309 or 390,000 that are out there! It actually looks good that IMO a minister is Hell bent on trying make a meal out of something that could be quietly sorted by grandfathering those 39 rifles on the QWT,and still getting his grand announcement of making us all safer or whatever else is going on in his fancy boy college educated mind on this matter.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,987 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    he idea of it also being a form of discrimination has also been floated. However while it might hold a teaspoon of water compared to the constitutional argument it still falls short as the law does/will not discriminate based on age, race, religion, etc.

    Wild idea,but what is to stop us from forming a religion of gun owners? After all we have been derided in the MSM and by others as "gun worshippers"And yes it would entitle us to have firearms for religious reasons. If the Sikh religion is entitled to carry their "kirpin" [a religious knife ] in public,either a real one or a symbolic version.Why should we be denied to bring holy artefacts to a place of worship every weekend? Sounds kind of nutty I know,but,if there is an opportunity or a loophole...

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Someone has been watching Disney


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Tut tut, you'll get us in bother with the W word.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Unsurprisingly there are actually 2 religions being established, one in the US and the other in the UK, with a central tenet being around firearms and their ownership by civilians.

    I won't go into much detail since it would be OT but since religious aspects have been incorporated into the secular political sphere more and more in the past decade it isn't surprising that such thinking has created these 2 religious bodies with just such an intent.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Yup. Had a word with myself about using the W word, explained the difference and issued an infraction for the profanity in the meme.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭Feisar


    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    Yes but they are conducting a survey of lengths according to their recommendations with 45cm being thrown out for no reason but pump actions in Germany?!

    Any ways the main point is it’s no longer risking jail to have 1 under 61/50cm. No one knew that for sure and many said it would take a court case to find out…well no need now it’s put to bed. So yeah in one way it’s making some firearms restricted but at least not prohibited as was taught the case by the majority.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭Zxthinger


    I’m trying to comprehend the level of nonsense that’s in these two reports. Who is going to administer all the proposed conditions on licences and a reintroduction of limited licences and authorisations with maps and such for clubs.. ffs this is some carry on here.

    Are they pulling figure out of their backside as security standards, sure I might as well just become a dealer and then they can tell me where I can sell and can’t sell guns..

    NV now deemed as Restricted item.. lol. But they need advice on the issue..

    Thermal users need training to distinguish between bird in bush vs larger animal. seriously! Do they think that serious hunters are shooting aimlessly through hedges and trees with rifles..

    Then they go on to suggest that high resolution NV devices can be too good and might fall into the wrong hands and should only be issued to professionals..

    It’s fantastic reading really.. I like to know who the professional fox eradicators are in South Kilkenny.

    Who’s out scouring the ground on foot because of other BS that prohibits shooting from a vehicle..

    Despite the elephant in the room, the nonsense in these reports epitomises the systemic bureaucracy that is enshrined in government entities that are too big to fail and have little to do anymore with all the low gagging fruit gone, wherein they manufacture rules and regulations to justify their bloody existence..



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,987 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Page 14 on the FEC report 1.

    Garda dismisses the issue of pistol mag capacity because no one has written to complain to the Firearms Policy Unit Of An Garda Síochána

    Are they seriously extracting the urine here??? Why would anyone be writing to them in the 1st place on something like this? Its a piece of legislation backed up by a High Court judgement. Its utterly Kafkaesque this thinking.

    Are they pulling figure out of their backside as security standards, sure I might as well just become a dealer and then they can tell me where I can sell and can’t sell guns..

    While a timelock might make sense in unattended commercial premises.it makes Zero sense in a domestic house! As our houses are mostly occupied by the owners,who are more than likely going to react by phoning AGS that a break-in is in progress? About the only time AGS will react at full speed to a break in is where there is a gun at the address these days.

    Also, how and for what time will we be setting this time lock? Who will even control that we set this lock , will there be a nationally mandated law to when we can have access to our personal property?

    Also from recent experience the word "substantial" should be banned from any legislation. Remember the fun of defining a "substantial meal" in the Covid years? So please define what a "substantial amount" of firearms are in law and not leave it open to every Supers interpretation,as then going by some of their comments and views substantial with them could be three or more!!

    Thermal users need training to distinguish between birds in the bush vs larger animals. seriously! Do they think that serious hunters are shooting aimlessly through hedges and trees with rifles..

    Then they go on to suggest that high-resolution NV devices can be too good and might fall into the wrong hands and should only be issued to professionals.

    I SERIOUSLY have to question did anyone on this committee even LOOK at a NV or thermal unit in the flesh so to speak?

    Or did they just go and ask some kids about it who play a lot of Call of Duty or Medal of Honour? Because this report reads like the idiocy of the previous legislation on restricting certain features, because...Hollywood!!!

    They should be ASHAMED of themselves to produce such a shoddy and ridiculous report. As even an hour's worth of Youtube would educate anyone on the intricacies of working a thermal unit.If you can programme a smart TV, or use a modern mobile phone you are qualified enough to programme and operate such a unit Nor will you get such high-resolution units either on the open market easily

    Gen 4 plus that have this high resoloution are ITAR-restricted products outside the US, and even in favoured trading countries like Germany or the UK. They will NOT sell these online or outside their countries not to mind without your proof of ID being produced! As these are "end user certificates" items. Plus they are serious cash too 3to 5 thousand is a good starting price for some of these units. Just another agenda-driven bit of the report with scaremongering.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,987 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Yes but they are conducting a survey of lengths according to their recommendations with 45cm being thrown out for no reason but pump actions in Germany?

    SIGH !!!They even got THAT wrong too. in fact, the barrel length can go down to 32 cm for a rifle and even down to 36 cm for a shotgun. If you are using them for HUNTING purposes only! They are called "Nachsuche waffen" Trans: follow-up guns for tracking and dealing with wounded animals like Wild boar.

    As Germany has TWO distinct and different licenses Either for hunting or sports shooter firearms, and neither the twain shall meet.

    As a hunter, you can have these types of short rifles and shotguns.But they cannot hold more than three shots! and you can only have TWO short big caliber handguns on your hunting license for Coup de Grace or self-defence out in the hunting let and you can have as many long arms as you want and can fit in your gun safe as well as unlimited ammo.

    As a sports shooter, you can have as many Cat C firearms as you can get signed off by your Range master in the gun club you have been practising your desired discipline for the last 12 months and when he thinks you are competent and safe enough to do so.

    So that means starting out, usually three shotguns,3 CF/22 handguns and or 3 rifles, disciplines depending. You are good reasoning than everything else per discipline.

    You can have the high capacity mags[IE over the 10/20 EU directive] if you are in certain disciplines no trouble, but your barrel lengths stay more or less on par with ours but can go down to 18ins on shotguns and rifles.

    CONTEXT is everything in this, and just giving such a half-explained reason as in this report shows whoever said it had no idea of what they were on about Re-German gun laws, So was FEC looking at hunting guns or sports guns over there? inquiring minds want to know!

    Post edited by Grizzly 45 on

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭J.R.




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    It's a report at this stage. Some, all or none of the recommendations might make it into law. So you can't quite put it to bed just yet.

    My personal view is that anything advantageous to shooters won't make it into law and anything that imposes more restrictions on shooters will make it into law.

    And the Government could full well implement even more stringent legislation not even hinted at in this report.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,987 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    That will wake up the slumbering giant of the IFA! Already there are some snarky comments coming from its members on the oral permissions and AGS deciding for them who they can or cannot let on their land to hunt.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    Disagreement with you there. It’s clearly stated that as it is there’s no prohibition on firearm barrels under 60/50cm. Which supports the “lawful authority” required to hold such a firearm as has been in legislation already. That’s clear as day and now put to bed.

    However! What’s not put to bed and I assume is what you’re talking about is the minimum length which is up for debate under 61/50 with 45cm being proposed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Disagree all you want. The FEC reports are only reports. They have zero legal standing. It's the law that counts and as things stand, the law hasn't been changed.

    Still grey areas that haven't been tested in the courts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭itisnotgrand


    The report is created by AGS and a barrister. The law states it already but this has clarified it



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I think I've explained myself badly. My point is that even though the FEC report was created by AGS and a barrister (and two firearms dealers), it still has no legal standing. The FEC report may be correct in some aspects of the law, but you can't go by what's in the FEC report. You have to go by what's in the legislation.

    The FEC report puts nothing to bed as it has no legal standing. A High Court judgement, that would put something to bed.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Wondering how long it would take for them to take notice.

    When their members start to lose lambs and livestock at an alarming rate, when forestry is destroyed, crops all but decimated how long before land owners start to ignore the proposed laws and ask for hunters help?

    There is so much more to these proposals other than gun ownership but the Minister can only see the headline of "guns taken off the streets" and is blind the legal, financial, and agricultural implications.

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