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Time for a zero refugee policy? - *Read OP for mod warnings and threadbans - updated 11/5/24*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭creeper1


    Look at the kind of thing being said by NGO s. "Ireland remains in clear breach of its legal obligations regarding newly arrived applicants for International Protection"

    What about obligations to people who live in Ireland, contributed tax (in many cases) and are citizens.

    Haven't these NGOs ever heard of the phrase "you can't get blood out of a stone".

    Ireland has done more than enough already and as politicians have said "moved heaven and earth" to accommodate people from both the Ukraine and all over the globe.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wtf good would that do , that’s actually worse, in fact you’re mixing up td’s and councillors so I’ll give you a pass



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'd like to make a request from the moderators.

    If a user posts figures that are verifiably false, have been proven to be false, and persist in doing so - I believe they should be threadbanned.

    Good faith conversations are not possible when people are lying time and time again. It just stinks up the thread with no benefit to anyone.

    We may as well be allowing flat earthers free reign because they too have difficulty with reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭maninasia


    I'm only posting this to put the lie to the above post.

    Accusing me of lying again and again. It's WAY out of order and unacceptable behaviour!!!!


    We didn't have an 80% increase , 100,000 increase in school leavers entering the workforce in 2022 did we?


    approx 200k PPS issued 2021

    approx 300k PPS issued 2022


    So figure it out. I mean it's not a mystery practically every Ukranian gets issued a PPS on entry to the state for instance. That is why it is relevant information to this debate.


    179,289 new PPS Numbers have been issued to Non-Irish nationals in Ireland from January-September 2022


    Number of PPSNs issued Jan-Sep 2022 (compared with same period in 2019):

    Total: 232,503 (+85,756)

    Irish Nationals: 53,214 (-657)

    Ukrainian Nationals: 55,205 (+54,736)

    Other Nationals: 124,084 (+31,677)


    You are so arrogant putting your own spin on numbers that you don't like asking Mods to remove it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    100,000 seems fairly accurate. Prove him wrong instead of just throwing obscenities around. What’s the actually number you think and give evidence and we can move on.

    You sound deeply angry at this discussion. Maybe you’ve got vested interest.


    side note: I don’t think Irish returning from abroad gets a new pps number. They keep their old one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    He's been proven wrong dozens of times on the thread ad-nauseum.

    His 100k figure is bullsh*t. Feel free to read the thread.

    The only vested interest I have is to not having to read concocted nonsense about what is a serious issue. I've already been accused of working for an NGO (as if there's something wrong with that).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No it hasn’t. It hasn’t been proven but it hasn’t been proven wrong. I think he’s right and you’re blowing angry smoke. Calm down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    😂

    I'm at work at the moment, but I'll be back to demolish that later.

    I can tell you put that together in haste because you've made some absolute howlers.

    Get the aloe vera ready because it's going to sting.

    You're still lumping in EU and UK nationals (despite mod warnings) as if it has anything to do with the price of turnips.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭maninasia


    You are well out of order with your above posts. Anger is not an excuse.


    Yurt accused me of lying. With no proof.

    But this is the government data.


    Number of PPSNs issued Jan-Sep 2022 (compared with same period in 2019):

    Total: 232,503 (+85,756)

    Irish Nationals: 53,214 (-657)

    Ukrainian Nationals: 55,205 (+54,736)

    Other Nationals: 124,084 (+31,677)



    Time for him to retract his statements about me, stop asking mods to remove content he doesn't personally like and behave like an adult.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You can "think" he's right, but you'll be filed under the wrong column with him if you want.

    His big claim: 100k Ukrainians and other asylum seekers over the last year.

    That's false. And it's already been proven. It's a completely concocted number.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Nobody is angry. Just make sure you have the aloe vera to hand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Accusing me of lying about PPS is unacceptable when the numbers are there in black and white from government websites.

    There isn't anything unclear.

    Nobody is 'lying'.


    Are you accusing the government of lying too?


    You just don't like them.


    Retract your accusations and learn how to talk with people you don't agree with like a grown adult.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭thinkabouit


    Oh yes because the alternative of the status quo is going so well isn’t it……

    Only three minor problem’s of having nowhere to live

    A Dail of independent’s would be the best thing to happen this country if managed properly.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What about “Irish returnees from abroad”. Didn’t you try and include that with new PPS numbers?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭maninasia


    You are the liar quoted in black and white here !!!!

    Irish nationals accounted for far less than foreign nationals in terms of PPSNs issued. And the number for Irish nationals even trended DOWN in 2022 compared to 2019 from the JAN-SEPT comparison dataset.



    Number of PPSNs issued Jan-Sep 2022 (compared with same period in 2019):

    Total: 232,503 (+85,756)

    Irish Nationals: 53,214 (-657)

    Ukrainian Nationals: 55,205 (+54,736)

    Other Nationals: 124,084 (+31,677)



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    That post and the argument in it cant be taken seriously because it contains figures claims that are untrue.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,427 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mod - If you're going to rely on these figures to make a point you can post a source for them, otherwise drop it and move on please. Thread is getting bogged down by these back and forth posts sniping about the accuracy of these new PPS numbers



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'll leave a little clue why Broseph's reliance on pps numbers (even though he's bunging-in EU & UK nationals for fun / ignorance) is leading him up the garden path and is further proof doesn't know what he's talking about.

    Shareholders in Irish registered companies who take dividends are required to apply for a PPS number by Revenue (and may not ever set foot in Ireland, and there's a lot of them by the way). Short term students who work as a barista and may not even stay a calendar year in Ireland are PPS required. Directors in Irish registered companies are PPS required (even though many live offshore and may never have resided in Ireland). Someone who buys commercial or real property and needs to engage with Revenue needs a PPS number (even though they may live offshore and never set foot in Ireland). What pound shop Farage doesn't realise is a pps number being issued does not equate to long term residence, or even evidence of living in Ireland.

    Some 2.5 million PPS numbers have been issued to foreign nationals over the last couple of decades. We haven't a population of 2.5 million non-nationals or even close to it. PPS does not equal residence, an intention or permission to reside in Ireland long-term.

    His 100k figure for Ukrainians and aslylum seekers is also 100% verifiable bullsh*t, it's a figure he pulled out of his backside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭high_tower


    Stop deflecting and bogging the thread down.

    also if they are mostly temp visas , for Irish shareholder dividends. Why the MASSIVE uplift this year ???



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The only people bogging the thread down are the people posting bogus figures time and again. Sorry not sorry that facts are bogging your mind down.

    It's not a MASSIVE uplift. Minus Ukrainian entrants (approx 14k of whom have returned to Ukraine or moved elsewhere in Europe taking the administrative activity CSO data) it's broadly in-line with what we were seeing pre-pandemic for non-EU nationals.

    Celtic Tiger pps issuances to non nationals were as high. And once again, pps issuance does not translate to an individual living here long term, or even necissarily living here at all.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Once the CSO statistics come out for full year 2022 it's highly likely 2022 was the highest year for immigration in our history. By a long shot. You wont hear it reported much though.


    Alteady on an April 2021 to April 2022 comparison basis it was up there before the major influx of Ukranians and uptick in asylum seekers occcurred.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2022/keyfindings/


    • The population increased by 88,800 persons, the largest 12-month increase since 2008.
    • There were 120,700 immigrants, a 15-year high.
    • Of those immigrants; 28,900 were returning Irish nationals, 24,300 were other EU nationals, and 4,500 were UK nationals. 
    • The remaining 63,000 immigrants were other nationals including almost 28,000 Ukrainians in the 12-month period. 




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,618 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Economists would suggest high net immigration is a good thing. It normally indicates a country that is doing extremely well and where there are many actual job vacancies (people are not going to want to move to a country in recession or where jobs are thin on the ground).



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Yes I didn't say it was good or bad. Mostly I'm for immigration.


    in 2022 it wasn't just high, it was a record high .


    What is curious is that this fact is almost never mentioned when it comes to the accommodation crisis in particular.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭batman_oh


    Definitely. I'm sure all the economists would also also agree that importing basically limitless people to now live on the streets when there are existing problems with housing, healthcare, school places etc is a brilliant sign that you are doing great work. We owe it to the world to take everybody that wants to be here as the Irish emigrated during the famine. There are no examples available where this has caused any issues. It is all a complete positive for the country in question and everybody involved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,804 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    So we are at the point now where we are inviting people into the country to be homeless.

    Wait until the tourist season and hotels kick out people for tourists.

    The tourists will be walking over people on the streets to get around.

    But saying we can't take more people in gets you into right wing nazi territory.

    The madness will come to end at some point but I think the damage is already done, Ireland as we knew it is gone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    😂

    Now you're declaring it a record high in the absence of statistics proving it so. Have you not had enough of making stuff up and getting pulled on it?

    First off, we're unlikely to hit the record highs of 2006 and 2007 in absolute terms and I'm willing to bet my left nut on it.

    Secondly, if you strip out the Ukraine effect (which you're overstating, only 61k according to CSO estimates remain), our inward migration is well below the levels of 2006 & 7.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Yes it does under the Geneva convention. It has an opt out in the Amsterdam Treaty for EU Asylum law. This does not mean it has no legal obligation.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    "Ireland as we knew it is gone"

    If there was no immigration in Ireland whatsoever the Ireland as we knew it would likely still be gone. It might look different from what it looks today, but it would still be different from what came before. The cultural changes brought about by the rise of the internet, Smartphones, easier global travel, decline of Church influence etc have all had a much greater impact in changes to Irish society than immigration. These elements are much more at play for any discussion on how Old Ireland is gone.

    Without immigration we would probably have struggled to transform the economy into what it needed to become in order for Ireland to move along with the world. That's not to say immigration doesn't have its downsides for a country, but this idea being peddled that the alternative to immigration is a Gaelic Paradise where Irish people come first is a romantic distortion of the more likely reality that Irish people would indeed come first — first on to the plane that is — to seek better prospects in more vibrant economies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,616 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Why would you strip out the Ukranian refugees?


    That's nonsense.

    Bet both your nuts 2022 won't be a record high, go all in.


    The unknown factor is how many folks are leaving as they can't find anywhere decent to live nor can they afford a good life in Dublin.

    https://m.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/i-really-want-to-stay-here-but-its-easier-to-go-dublin-teacher-on-why-shes-emigrating-for-a-better-quality-of-life-abroad-42429273.html



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Shur you want to fire in EU nationals and UK nationals, even PPS figures (remember 300k? What's that got to do with anything?) that include tens of thousands of Irish births in ham fisted attempt to make some sort of Paddy Angryman point because you put your brain in a blender.

    Leave-in your overstated Ukraine figures or take them out, up to you. I mention them because it's an extraordinary event where Ireland is showing its best side (not that you'd know anything about that) and pulling its weight in solidarity against a fascistic war.

    When the final figures come in (including full census data) we still won't be hitting 2006/7 numbers in absolute terms.

    You've been having trouble with words and your Fisher Price calculator, and that apparently is going to continue into the future because of your chronic lying.



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