Abuse of Referees

Drumpot · 12-04-2023 11:43am

One “solution” or at least a potential deterrent is to encourage clubs to have somebody recording sidelines and/or spectators.

Having a bunch of Camera phones either on peoples Helmut cams or some sort of device that holds them in place is doable. Anybody caught attacking refs etc gets ban. Might shame some people into compliance, I can think of some obnoxious assh*les who couldn’t but he embarrased if the stuff they got up to started to get shown to them and others at their club. Equally it may force a club to act.

There is no excuse in this day and age for them to not have some sort of digital deterrent as the costs have never been less.

It’s as always a case of what a sport is willing to do to protect officials. In many cases the sport does f**k all and refs are left to be the arbitrators of anarchy and just put up with abuse. The culture won’t change until there is consequences for knobjocky coaches in even the smaller games.

evolvingtipperary101 · 12-04-2023 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468551#Comment_120468551

Agreed. Most areas of a stand should have multiple cameras and be mic'd up at this stage. But there's no excuse why it can't be all around a ground, any ground. The bottle thrower at Tony Kelly last year could have been found.

To be honest I'm going to start recording abusive people on my phone and put it up on twitter. I'm sick of it.

dxhound2005 · 12-04-2023 12:16pm

Meath Westmeath 11 April, 8 pm. Westmeath scored 3 points, along with a goal from a last minute penalty. There were probably not many at the game, but if a few idiots were shouting abuse, I wonder if there would be many volunteers kitted out for the weather, available to record them. And who are these volunteers supposed to report to? Fair play if "civilians" want to do it, and put it up on social media. But I think the GAA as an organisation would take some persuasion.

"Failing to produce anything remotely close to their best form for the first three quarters of the game at rain-sodden Ashbourne last Tuesday night, Westmeath’s U20 footballers bowed out of the Leinster championship with a flattering two-point defeat at the hands of what looked to be a relatively ordinary Meath side.

Non-stop rain for hours prior to the match meant that it was in doubt up to the 11th hour, with quite an amount of water on the pitch. However, the conditions were equally poor for both participants and the young Royal County men coped far better, their opponents failing to score in the first moiety despite the aid of a useful wind."

greenspurs · 12-04-2023 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468287#Comment_120468287

Getting paid doesnt make you a 'good' referee, and it wouldnt make you 'bad' either...

Money doesnt equate quality in an amateur sport ( barely does in a professional sport!!)

No ref -No game .....

People do have the option to take up refereeing themselves but wont.

greenspurs · 12-04-2023 3:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468476#Comment_120468476

Fitness test was removed (or considerably reduced ) in some counties to enable less fit (and older) men to referee underage games due to shortages in volunteers.

Drumpot · 12-04-2023 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468694#Comment_120468694

If it becomes normal for at least one fan or club member of a club to record a match , then you can bet your ass a member from the other club will do the same so eventually each side is regulating the other. Nothing is normal or part of the game until it is.

Lost Ormond · 12-04-2023 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468287#Comment_120468287

Thats unfair. Do refs get any assistance from county boards about fitness. Very unfair picking one ref out like that. refs arent being paid. they get expenses to cover costs. that isnt being paid.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468476#Comment_120468476

They need monthly or fortnightly meetings in their county and division(in bigger counties) with full time development officers. then you need older, more experienced and retired refs helping coach new refs and less experienced.

Not just an inservice once a year ending in a test.

greenspurs · 12-04-2023 3:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469576#Comment_120469576

If you can move, however slowly, but are willing to ref - you can do. Thats the reality of it.

Theres more and more games every season now, and the same for hurling, so theres more games but the same amount (or less) refs.

We used to do a seminar once a year , where there was the "Cooper Test" done for the fitness part then a tick the box multi choice questionaire as the exam - The course instructor used to leave 'to go to the toilet' for 10mins , and he said just keep the noise down *wink wink..... thereby giving everyone the opportunity to confer and help out each other.

That was quite a few years ago , when refs were more plentiful than now!

At a higher level, the fitness test was also the "Cooper", but a bit more stringently timed !

The exam was also more strict, but still there was some help given out.

There was 3 seminars held per season, and if you didnt pass either the fitness or exam you were off the panel until you did pass.

Lost Ormond · 12-04-2023 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469627#Comment_120469627

with rugby we dont have fitness tests like that bar one at pre season and then you have the AIL refs who are the top 50 or so in the country who do one and thats more serious.

Then refs in each provincial society/association meet once a month or fortnight(varies per province). I think you shouldnt be off panels for failing tests/exams like that. There needs to be more experienced refs/retired refs coaching refs at all levels. they sit and watch refs. take notes. go speak to ref at half time if theyve anything for ref to work on for 2nd half then they speak again at full time.. they send the ref and the ref selection committee for the county etc a report and that goes into the selection of that ref for coming weeks whether they move up and ref at that level again or step up to ref a higher level or need to drop down to a lower level to improve on certain areas of the game.

dxhound2005 · 12-04-2023 4:00pm

It's hard enough to get referees already. Forcing the ones who do volunteer to give up more of their free time for extra meetings and training, could turn some of them away. Same thing in Offaly, link below, and there are similar stories from other counties.

Wicklow is in "dire straits" when it comes to having referees to take charge of games in 2023.

"Wicklow People

Brendan Lawrence

February 14 2023 06:20 PM

Wicklow GAA is in “dire straits’ in terms of the number of referees available to take charge of adult games in 2023, delegates were told at Monday night’s County Board meeting in Echelon Park Aughrim.

In recent weeks clubs were asked to supply at least one person to train as a referee but Wicklow GAA Chairman Damien Byrne revealed that they hadn’t received any names from any club.

“We are in dire straits for referees going forward for this year,” said Byrne. “Some of our referees are injured and won’t be participating. This is a major, major problem, nationwide, not just in our county.

“I’m encouraging each and every one of you to bring this back to your clubs."

https://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/home/798540/critical-shortage-of-referees-for-offaly-gaa.html

Lost Ormond · 12-04-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469771#Comment_120469771

Is a couple of hours a month really a barrier. A couple of hours that will help them improve as a ref. why would that turn them away?

How is what i suggest, better training and development, a barrier that makes it harder to get refs?

Gusser09 · 12-04-2023 4:46pm

You see GAA is a different animal than Rugby or Soccer which are much slower and one could get away with carrying a bit and not being fit.

You go to nearly any county and look at senior hurling. You need to be fit and able to move. However saying that too much is expected of lads when a ball is traveling 80 or 90 meters in 2 seconds. Nobody can keep up with that regardless of fitness.

Hurling is a much tougher game to ref given lads are expected to make decisions based on stuff happening a serious distant away. It really is getting to the stage where 2 refs are going to be needed even at club level.

Oh and 40 euro for an adult game is a joke. Lads should be getting 50 quid for an adult game.

dxhound2005 · 12-04-2023 4:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469819#Comment_120469819

I think you are expecting a bit more than that, and not just from the referees. Everyone involved are volunteers, and the extra activities would have to be co-ordinated among the various parties, outside their work hours. Some referees probably volunteer for other activities like training underage. They might have to make a choice between that, and travelling to the meetings.

There needs to be more experienced refs/retired refs coaching refs at all levels. they sit and watch refs. take notes. go speak to ref at half time if theyve anything for ref to work on for 2nd half then they speak again at full time.. they send the ref and the ref selection committee for the county etc a report and that goes into the selection of that ref for coming weeks whether they move up and ref at that level again or step up to ref a higher level or need to drop down to a lower level to improve on certain areas of the game.

Lost Ormond · 12-04-2023 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469967#Comment_120469967

Im not saying refs shouldnt be fit but that fitness is something that should be worked on and theyre kept reffing just at lower levels until theyre ready to step up to higher levels.

I wouldnt call hurling much tougher to ref. technically rugby has so much going on it and also have to take into account for players to adjust to your interpretation of areas makes it tricky.

You dont need 2 refs even at club level unless you improve other areas around linesmen, umpires(where you have them) first. there is enough issues with how refs are trained and coached without changing that and just adding a 2nd official.

jimmythesulk · 12-04-2023 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469576#Comment_120469576

If you want to be a ref you need to be fit. What is unfair is a team training all year only to be screwed over by a ref who has no business out on that field. The same ref was removed from all games in Kilkenny due to wearing a Waterford jersey while reffing an underage game in Kilkenny and ended up reffing camogie matches in where only but Waterford. They can keep him. His parish hasn't produced a decent hurler or ref in decades and are practically in Waterford anyway.

Lost Ormond · 12-04-2023 5:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470103#Comment_120470103

There is a tiny number of refs who need to be fitter but what guidance are they given and assistance other than a yearly fitness test? Where are the official coaches and assessors who can go watch a ref and say what things a ref needs to do to improve through an official process not simply fans or people on sideline saying "you fat **** keep up with play" or what ever else.

99.999999% of times a team loses because of their mistakes and its nothing to do with refs even if there is alleged screwing over.

greenspurs · 12-04-2023 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470103#Comment_120470103

Serious accusations against a ref that people from around that area know...

Sounds like you have a serious chip on your shoulder....

Ever referee yourself? (the sideline doesnt count)

carltonleon · 12-04-2023 5:45pm

What they have started to trial in England at Sunday League level is the refs have started to wear body cams similares to Rugby League. The cameras are not switched on to record the match but the ref can switch on if he is getting abused or feels threatened. By all accts it has had a positive impact on behaviour with less abuse and threatening behaviour towards the refs taking part in the trial

ebbsy · 12-04-2023 6:16pm

Things like the ref just walking off will help people wake up.

I have no idea what the GAA are at. Only the captain should be talking to the ref. Anybody else can spend 15 minutes on the sideline. That is a long time in a match.

Never mind the 96 weeks. Life ban with an obligation to notify the Gardai. People in Kildare have gone to jail for attacking a ref. That will make people open their eyes.

So much money in GAA, but..........

Lost Ormond · 12-04-2023 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470305#Comment_120470305

Only the captain talking to ref isnt completely feasible in GAA when you have static positions etc. You could have incident at one end of ground and the captain could be goalie/full back at far end of pitch.

greenspurs · 13-04-2023 9:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470138#Comment_120470138

Theres no point doing that for older refs really. Too set in their ways at that stage.

There needs to be a serious drive from the Gaa/Camogie Assoc to recruit young lads/lasses to take up the whistle, and then have a mentor/assessor to visit and watch/assess games on an ongoing basis.

The money involved with Gaa/Camogie now should allow for the Refs group to set up such a system.

A school of excellence, where the refs are brought for a weekend every 2-3 months for fitness tests, assessments, rule changes, seminars and then they go back reffing their games.

That would ensure the refs are made feel like they are being guided and helped along , and to help make them understand reffing better.

If theres no money invested into refs at a young age, things will never change.

Gusser09 · 13-04-2023 9:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471812#Comment_120471812

LOL. There is a reason why people won't take up reffing. The abuse will never stop. It's gone on as long as I can remember and will always be a factor. Also the poor enough match fees in most counties. Lads aren't desperate for the money.

Seth Brundle · 13-04-2023 10:02am

I would take it for granted that the one change that would help bring about a mindset change is backing from the GAA HQ down to club level. If people felt that they were being backed by the organisation, then they might consider the role. I would doubt that the money, the fitness or anything else would have as much of an effect on people making the choice to become a ref or not.

However, as we know from the ample evidence out there, neither HQ, county boards or clubs give a toss about it!

evolvingtipperary101 · 13-04-2023 10:33am

Will O'Callaghan has stated that two other inter county refs, just like Fergal Horgan, he spoke to yesterday, are completely disillusioned. This is not over. It's just beginning.

evolvingtipperary101 · 13-04-2023 10:35am

Brian Gavin's position on the issue:

"That the best hurling referee in the country this week announced he had quit and claimed on his way out the door that there is zero support for referees from top brass is evidence plenty that refereeing is not high up the Croke Park agenda, Gavin added.

“The refereeing standard is not up to the standard of our games at the moment. And it is all because of a lack of finance and lack of structure from Croke Park to improve the standard of refereeing,” said Gavin.

“There is not even a plan for county referees. It is up to each county to do their own thing.” The Offaly native said the Croke Park approach to refereeing has taken all joy out of officiating.

“Take the fitness test, and there is a doubt about it after what happened last weekend when a referee was given a championship game despite failing the test, but why are we setting rules and tests?

“If a referee does a national league game, you'll surely know after 75 minutes if that man is fit to referee or not.

“And if he's not, why isn't Croke Park making sure he’s training twice a week with fellow referees, and look after them in terms of expenses and a meal after training, like inter-county players. All we are doing is setting rules and tests to turn people off.” Three-time hurling final referee Horgan cited an imbalanced appointments process as a factor in his decision to retire.

Gavin argued that decisions based on geography rather than ability will crop up until such time as CRAC is disbanded.

“Let's call a spade a spade, some of the appointments - league games, in particular - would be because of where the referee is from and who is trying to push him in which province.

“What we need is a three or four-man independent body that has no ties to any provincial administrator or committee.” Referees not being allowed to take charge of inter-county games once they have reached the age of 50 was described as “farcical”. Gavin also claimed that Croke Park does not want to add new referees to the national panel who are older than 35.

“You can either referee or you can't. We are gone away from that. What we have now is whether he can referee a game or whether he can be a robot to Croke Park.

“We are crying out for referees and here we are eliminating fellas, eliminating the best fellas. There really needs to be leadership from the top. I'd be hoping Jarlath Burns will take this issue by the scruff of the neck.”

rpurfield · 13-04-2023 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470006#Comment_120470006

I referee and we had a very well attended meeting a few weeks ago, it was suggested we meet again in May and the big problem was finding a night with no games on. I'm in Meath and at the minute Monday is Minor football, Tuesday and Thursday is adult A league, Wednesday U15 football or hurling, Friday U13 football or hurling and minor hurling weekend reserve football or hurling. The planner is that tight, especially with so many games lost the last few weeks, its almost impossible to find a night. I'm sure most counties are the same and then you have refs doubling up either as dual code or also doing ladies or camoige.

Just on the comparisons with other sports, my young lad plays rugby and I definitely think physically it is less demanding than any GAA code to referee. But it is far more technical, personally I would run a mile from having to make a call on a scrum or an offside line and I watch a fair bit of rugby!! I'd actually love to see a comparison on a heart rate monitor between club refs at GAA, soccer and rugby.

TheWonderLlama · 13-04-2023 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470305#Comment_120470305

This is the thing. Managers getting huge salaries, players getting "expenses" and other perks, board members the same,

Refs? "here's €50 and be glad of it."

and you wonder why nobody wants to get pucked in the head for it?

Lost Ormond · 13-04-2023 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471812#Comment_120471812

There is most certainly a point doing that for older refs. they can change or simply wont get games suitable for their ability then

Yes there needs to be a serious drive from the associations to recruit younger refs but that can only happen if there is extensive changes to how refs are trained, coached and developed. you also need different assessors and coaches to be watching refs as fresh eyes always makes it better for the ref to develop more.

People keep focusing on fitness tests. what is far more important than fitness is rules awareness, rules changes/adaptations. game management. If a ref isnt fit enough and an assessor sees them reffing an A grade minor game for example then they are dropped down by the selection committee to ref u12/14 games until they are seen and observed to be fitter/better. what is far more important is training around how to manage situations first

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120472222#Comment_120472222

Yes that is far more of an issue for GAA with summer and ability to play games every night of the week

Very interesting and fair point about reffing rugby. but we have to be far closer to play to make decisions. You say you would run a mile from making call on scrum etc but thats where training and coaching comes in. in each province the refs get monthly seminars on a different area of the game led by a professional referee development officer(who are former professional referees or have reffed at top level for long time) - Peter Fitzgibbon, Sean Gallagher..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120472285#Comment_120472285

It cant and doesnt come down to money. Its far more than that.

Gusser09 · 13-04-2023 11:51am

Abuse is the main issue followed by burn out for referees. That might seem strange but most refs at club level at the moment will be doing 6 or 7 games a week. They get to a point where performances and standards dip. Are there are any counties that supply refs with gear even? Even the likes of a jersey and shorts would go some way to showing appreciation.

greenspurs · 13-04-2023 5:02pm

And lets not mention the boyos that go in 'doing' umpire .....

How some of them have the balls to blatantly cheat while umpiring at under age matches is scandalous.

1 **** is notorious for it around the area near me .... Waving points wide against his club, and the opposite for his club .

At under age matches ............. 😏

Abuse of Referees

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