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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    her Diary missing too according to some sources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭leeside11


    The Priest who preformed the last rites on Sophie's body, Fr Denis Cashman died on Good Friday.

    Saw a brief clip of him on YouTube explaining the anger at her body being left out all night..



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    He'd have been freeloading off jules I'd guess

    So probably had the dole anyway

    Was he doing casual work on top



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,819 ✭✭✭✭briany


    He claimed that on the night in question he'd gotten up in the middle of night to do some work an an article. That event is obviously disputed, but the fact that he mentions this activity like it was something he did suggests that he was still working as a freelance journalist around this time, or at least trying to be one.

    Given Jules Thomas' occupation of artist, I doubt she was ever particularly wealthy, herself. Maybe there was an inheritance or two to keep one or both of them afloat for a long period of time. Bailey did later claim, however, after splitting from Thomas that he'd been reduced to homelessness and living on benefits.

    Anyway, Bailey just posted a link to this podcast episode on his Twitter...




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Wasn't there something fishy about him getting up during the night to write

    Can't remember exactly

    Did he recall it after Jules admitted he was gone for a while or something



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,819 ✭✭✭✭briany


    The facts of the night are definitely heavily in dispute and I think both Bailey and Thomas have given differing/changing accounts of that particular span of time. Nothing to do with proving/disproving the veracity of Bailey's claim, though, just talking about how he may have been making a living at the time of Du Plantier's murder. In the podcast I linked above, Bailey mentions having done a variety of jobs after moving to West Cork, though the only one he specifically recounts is three months on farm, employed to keep birds off the seed and paid in room and board. By the time of the murders, he says he was back at the journalism and 'flying it', to use his words.

    Bailey's claim of getting up in the middle of the night is repeated in the Wikipedia article about the murder. An interesting line also in the article is Jules Thomas's claim, highlighted here in bold,

    Bailey and his partner gave conflicting accounts of his whereabouts on the night of the murder. In their initial statements to Gardaí, they both said Bailey had been in bed all night long. Thomas subsequently retracted that account and said Bailey had got out of bed about an hour after they had gone to bed at 10:00 p.m., and returned at 9:00 a.m. with a new injury to his forehead. Bailey changed his story to say that he got up at 4:00 a.m., wrote an article for about 30 minutes and returned to bed.

    So, before, going on I want to stress that the part in bold does not appear to have a cited source in the article. If Thomas really did say that, it sounds like a pretty damning bit of testimony, unless Bailey subsequently claimed that it was in the wee hours he decided to kill those turkeys or chop that tree. If Thomas said it, I'd be interested to see a link. If not, then I'd have to discount it by default.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    We shouldn't rule out the possibility that with drink taken they're not 100% sure in recollection of the events of the night.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,819 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Good point. I don't think we'll ever really know at this stage. The case against Bailey as it stands is based on testimony (some of which has plausible deniability or has been recanted/changed at least once) and circumstance, as far as I can see. There is no direct physical evidence linking Bailey to the crime. Maybe there would have been if the Gards had been more competent in their methods, we don't know, but it's water under the bridge. Unless someone can get some cold case DNA or something, it'll remain a mystery.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I guess at this stage DNA perhaps from a discovered murder weapon etc. is the only chance of solving this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    I assumed forensics was long gone with he circumstances and state pathologist etc.

    Thought maybe jules or the family would say something if they heard



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,616 ✭✭✭Field east


    What about someone very physically close to Bailey at the very night and day after the murder coming forward with new information - was there not at least three - Ms Thomas, Bailey’s or Thomas’s daughter and a young adult/teenager friend /student staying with them at the time



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,307 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks



    Excerpts from her diary were given to Michael Sheridan by the family of Sophie.

    Here's an article about that

    The extracts from the diary were published in a paperback, by writer Michael Sheridan, in 2004, Death in December — The Story of Sophie Toscan du Plantier.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20321277.html

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Her diaries were never missing. But her journals/ Filofax were not handed to the French investigators initially leading to reports they had gone missing. These journals contained appointments, travel arrangements, contact numbers, addresses etc. - nothing about Ian Bailey in either her diaries or the journals when the Gardai did go through them eventually, probably why they were withheld from the French investigators.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,470 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    I'd wait for any new evidence and see where it leads rather than repeat the error of looking for evidence against someone in particular and missing other potential evidence as a result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,307 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    Which proves the point I was making about the Diary

    You mention: journals/ Filofax were not missing.

    Did they even exist?

    Have you got a link to your claim that these documents were in Garda files and the contents of such.

    Did her family take away her all her personal possessions after the house had been cleared by the the Guards.

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    A night out in the pub and drinking by both Ian and Jules on the one side and incompetent and corrupt Guards on the other side will probably never solve the mystery.

    Suppose they find somebody's DNA somewhere, suppose it's a fire poke, or some other stone which may have been around in the open, all things that may be explained in some way or another. Anybody could have practically touched a cavity block sitting outside of a property near a gate and a pump house. I also think that if the French really wanted to prosecute Ian, they would have to have done a way better job as well. French police has no authority in Ireland, but they could have had some kind of watchful eye or even accompanied the investigation. All the French did, was insisting on a court ruling on false statements and false evidence collected by inept Guards in Ireland and Sophie's son and parents felt obliged to believe the outcome.

    I think unless there is a deathbed confession we will never know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Acorn 737


    People there must be tired of it at this stage though, they had a nice zeitgeist going down there and then this awful murder happened and things were never right after it. And I hate to admit it but whenever I meet somebody from there it’s all I can do not to ask them about it. I doubt I’m unique on that one, but it must get to them too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think the reputation of the area is negatively stigmatized ever since the murder and the poorly handled murder investigation.

    To me the whole area is automatically as per my own prejudice an area of people of blow ins fleeing from a different or former life, strange characters who don't fit in anywhere else, idealist artists, dabblers in the drug business and corrupt and incompetent police.

    It's nice countryside and cozy pubs, but nothing would ever motivate me to buy property there, for what it is they are overpriced anyway. The value simply isn't there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,819 ✭✭✭✭briany


    The impression I get is that the investigation was already compromised before the French authorities could even have arrived.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    The most realistic theory in my opinion was one stated by Bailey himself. He saw her in Spar, liked the look of her and went up to the house late at night. He was rejected and then things went wrong.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    That's not only an impression you are getting, it's sadly a fact.

    The French authorities had in reality nothing on Bailey, nor could they influence or lead the investigation. They only became involved once they understood that Sophie was a French citizen.

    There are always problems when a trial takes place but the scene of the crime is not within their jurisdiction. As far as I know there were not even forensic experts at the trial in France. It was just hearsay.

    And Bailey was already tried but never convicted in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,819 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Bailey must have an abiding concern that someone in France will pay a few heavies to come over, abduct him and smuggle him to France, where he'll then presumably have to start his 25 year sentence in prison. Like what happened to Dieter Krombach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,755 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    It really is a shame that an accurate time of death wasn’t recorded. It would have, either, eliminated Bailey and his time wasting circus or removed some of the doubt around his guilt.

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,470 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    If that was the reason, and that's a leap of faith in itself, then 'he' could have been anybody and we're still left with the problem that there isn't the evidence to identify let alone prove who 'he' is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,819 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I know that Bailey had been known to get drunk and have violent fights with Jules Thomas, but seeing someone around the town, liking the look of them and then killing them after they reject your proposition in the middle of the night is on another level entirely. I've heard that Bailey was/is egotistical and that he had these drunken fights with his long term partner, but the 'Spar scenario', as I'll call it, reads more like a violent predator with a history. If he hadn't known form for accosting women either unknown or barely known to him in such a way as theorised, I don't think it has much credibility.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,755 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    Some trek to make in the middle of the night, after a skinful, without knowing how it would go as well.

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    He could have been anybody in the area at the time! Someone who had a history of violence against women maybe? Someone who didn't have a full proof alibi and by their own admittance, had discussed the area of the murder earlier in the night.

    Bailey is the one who stated the sighting in Spar theory. As I said, it would be the most realistic outcome in my view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    I think it's far more realistic than any other theory out there. Yes, it's been passed off as him joking but admitting crimes like this is something we've seen with previous convicted murderers. As well as appearing at the scene of the crime afterwards to try to stay up to date on where the investigation is going.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,819 ✭✭✭✭briany


    It could be the most realistic theory, but I don't think Bailey fits the bill for it. It doesn't strike me as the kind of thing you'd do on impulse if you had no history for it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭Musicrules


    But we don't know his full history. We only know of the recent history at the time with Jules. And that was violent. How much do we know of his history in England? What he may have done that noone else has a clue about? It would be strange to discount the most realistic theory based on very little.



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