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  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    There was a section on renewable electricity in the Economist last week. There were some interesting stuff that I was not aware of -

    For the past years, in developed countries anyway, the electric grids have been more or less static. This means that the large suppliers have managed their supply based on replacements only (ie a new transformer would only be needed when an existing one reached end of life). Now as a result of renewables, the grids are growing rapidly and the suppliers are not able to keep up with demand. A large scale transformer which weighs 300 tonnes, costs 30M euros takes 3 years to supply from order to delivery. And while suppliers are expanding existing plants more productive, they are not willing to build new capacity as they see this as a one off spike in demand. This is in the early days of renewable electricity demand spike so the deliver timescales are likely only going to get worse.

    The other one was about interconnectors and how current technology limits their use. Most interconnectors are HV DC, this is then converted to AC at the receiving grid and it is vital that this is synchronised with the local grid frequency. The local grid frequency is controlled currently by spinning metal (the large drive shafts in power stations that spin at 3000rpm). Invertors are used to convert the DC to AC but these are mainly "grid following" so it is important that there is enough spinning metal in the grid otherwise things can get out of sync. The next generation of invertors are "grid generating" so that they can be programmed to synchronise with the grid and the need for spinning metal is redundant. Using these in conjunction with the new power transistors means that it will be possible to route the power to where it is in most demand so for example a wind farm in the North Sea that typically sends power to Scotland, could instead send it to Germany if there was no demand in Scotland. This would of course require that the wind farm had an HV DC interconnect to Germany.

    The result of all of this is that the expansion of the grid demanded by decarbonisation is the biggest change to power systems in history.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The problem with domestic PV is that kW for kW it is very expensive compared to utility scale PV.

    Batteries may be more practical for homes (even without PV) because they even out the peaks and troughs and can potentially help stabilize the grid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭specialbyte


    It doesn't really matter if residential PV is more expensive than utility PV. The big advantage is that the homeowner is the one investing their capital rather than the government or an institutional investor. So while the cost is higher per kW it's a new source of investment.

    If residential solar also reduces demand that EVs put on the grid it will likely reduce the need to upgrade the distribution grid in many urban areas. This will have a large positive for folks like ESB Networks who manage distribution.

    Looking at a country like the Netherlands, which is adding tons of PV, you can see that residential solar is adding a meaningful contribution: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/netherlands-solar-pv-capacity-additions-2018-2022-and-average-annual-additions-2023-2025

    Residential solar rarely takes resources from utility or commercial solar installation pipeline. It's different capital, it's different installers, and it's a different planning process. They are both using similar panels, but the commercial/utility folks are using different inverters etc. Panel production is not really an issue TBH.

    Comparing them isn't really that useful because they aren't really competing with each other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭323


    Who knows when comes to planning in Ireland?

    Haven't paid much attention to this one, guessing the long delay has probably something to do with foreshore licencing, the system was not fit for purpose. The new National Marine Planning Framework / Maritime Area Regulatory Authority should speed things up when fully implemented.

    Could also be fast tracked at EU level as a Project of Common Interest (PCI), believe that was used for the current project.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    it is not correct to say that Solar will reduce the requirement for grid upgrades. It will not reduce the peak winter demand by one iota.

    If more then a third of homes get PV and export during peak summer months, upgrades may be required to deal with this PV export

    The cost is undoubtedly higher and this higher cost is ultimately paid for by the consumer (electricity bills and capital repayments) and the taxpayer (tax breaks and grants).

    That is not to say that we shouldn’t have lots of residential PV but it is important to understand that it is relatively high cost, and low return as a result.

    Batteries are a different story.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Yes, I was sceptical about domestic wind in urban areas, and even rural areas would need to be away from trees and in exposed locations. Cost would be too high currently, and suitable products are still a decade away. That is like wave power.

    As for payback and the economics of domestic installations vs grid scale installations is that the basis for cost/payback is different.

    Domestic is retail price vs grid is wholesale price. Now if the feed-in tariff were in tune with the supply charge, then batteries would be redundant, but feed in tariffs are tiny in comparison with supply charges. When that changes, batteries make no sense.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    “Now if the feed-in tariff were in tune with the supply charge, then batteries would be redundant, but feed in tariffs are tiny in comparison with supply charges. When that changes, batteries make no sense.”

    It won’t change. There is no appetite to make feed in tariffs attractive. In fact in the US and most of the world, they are actually significantly reducing or even completely eliminating feed in tariffs for new customers.

    As a result, batteries are becoming more attractive for folks getting solar or even just the battery.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Feed in tariffs are currently way above the actual value of the electricity in the wholesale market.

    PV generation just isn’t that valuable because it is never available at peak times.

    what makes PV attractive is that you avoid distribution and transmission charges. But these charges could well be significantly reduced during off-peak hours and months in the future and that will make the differential smaller.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    PV plus battery could make suitably equipped domestic customers completely supplied for the summer months of the year, and largely for the spring and autumn. With a generous (Ha!) off-peak regime, it could make peak use for such home very small and relieve pressure on the grid.

    Remember, domestic generation is retail pricing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Absolutely true about supplying three seasons of the year. The cost for ‘capacity’ all comes from the other three months of the year.

    its not a matter of ‘generous’. The rarely used assets have to be paid for even if they are rarely used. If they are not used during the three warm seasons then the cost is going to have to be covered in the winter.

    A low off peak distribution/transmission charge would likely be the death-knell for the economics of domestic PV. (At the same time it would make batteries much more attractive.)

    The prices being offered are really loss leaders. They aren’t worth suppliers’ while. Green energy is coming in at the auctions at 12c/kWh or thereabouts I think. That’s what you need to compare the price to, not the retail purchase price.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Only 50% of domestic installations are PV 'friendly' so those 50% without PV still need supply. Batteries allow the peak demand period to be avoided, which smart meters would cope with if batteries are installed. Off-peak tariffs only apply to non-SM installations.

    With EV demand increasing, the whole domestic issue becomes very important, as multiple EVs at a location begins to demand three phase supplies, with high potential demand.

    It is going to get complicated and messy.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    If you look at the Bord Gais EV plan, you can see some of the possibilities for batteries. Between 2am and 5am it costs 10c/kWh, then between 5m and 7pm it costs 56c/kWh.

    If the cost of the battery is low enough, you can see how charging up the battery off the grid at night and then using it at 5pm could save you serious money, even without solar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Yes 46c/kWh is serious differential! Batteries are sustainable when it goes over 10 or 20c from memory.

    Most people would want a supplier or similar to commit to this type of rate over a sustained period to make it a good investment.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Unless a neighbourhood is exporting more than their peak demand the existing distribution systems and transformers should be OK.

    Batteries were a different story before the recent Feed In Tariffs changes.


    Apart from the wee hours in the middle of summer solar only produces during peak demand. It displaces the most expensive peaking plant.

    Capital costs for transmission are based on peak demand, you can't avoid them by reducing the load at other times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Peaks are is in the winter months in the hours after the sun sets. This is when energy gets really expensive on windless days. Solar won’t help with this at all.

    I don’t see how solar will reduce peaker demand. It will mostly offset CCGT demand.

    it will make no difference to the total infrastructure required to support the winter peak as you rightly say. This goes for peaker plants as well as distribution and transmission assets.

    This still has to be paid for out of customer bills.

    Re transmission/distribution costs, we are speaking at cross purposes. I am speaking about charges. Setting the afternoon charges to 0 or 1c/kWh (and having a high peak charge to compensate) would still collect the same amount of money but it would make domestic solar far less attractive.

    Post edited by antoinolachtnai on


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Those "predictions" sound about as credible as the ones they brought out 15 years ago about "peak oil"🙄



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And yet the data shows their prediction is not far off the mark with feck all investment going into fossil fuel power plants when compared to renewables

    You can continue to bury your head in the sand though, it won't make a jot of difference, the change is well underway



  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    Fracked gas is dirtier than coal, in terms of the amount of greenhouse gas emitted by it. When gas is fracked, methane is released into the air, and if it is turned into LNG, that also causes methane to leak into the air, and these emissions, combined with the carbon dioxide emitted when the gas is burned, are higher than the emissions of coal. On top of the particularly high contribution to the cimate crisis, fracking also poisons water in the areas where it takes place, which kills people who come into contact with it, or at least makes them sick. So, fracked gas is definitely among the dirtiest energy sources, so that's why I really don't think building LNG terminals that would import fracked gas, such as Shannon LNG, should be allowed. I do not think that energy security should be pursued at the cost that the likes of Shannon LNG has.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,454 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Fracking isn't stationary technology ,it's moved on a hell of a lot on the last 10 years , and is a lot less damaging than it was in the early days , I'm sure it still has problems but it's a lot better than it was ,

    Also a lot of shale gas is a by-product of shale oil production , if they don't sell it ,it gets flared on site , so burnt without doing any thing

    Apart from the fact I don't think we have any large shale gas basins here ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,454 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    All gas and oil production leaks stupid amounts of methane - much much more than the fossil fuel companies claim -

    They can measure gas concentrations by area from satellites ,more of that could be captured and used .. it's fuel after all .. it either has to be worth while doing financially, or by regulation .. ( preferably both )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,454 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Could better grants be offered for solar for a more spread pattern of generation ?

    So either with a battery , east and west facing panels or tiltable panels so that it's not huge peaks around mid-day ,

    It'll be interesting with electric cars as well , if your car is at work but your panels are flat out producing at home you'd be a bit miffed - especially if you had to buy a second huge expensive battery to overnight charge your ev , when its off peak from the grid,

    Suddenly a reasonable mid day feed on tarriff combined with a cheap off peak use tarriff doesn't seem so bad

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Yeah - like in Germany with expansion of coal mines and the US with expansion of oil/gas drilling in the Arctic and Gulf as announced recently by the Biden Administration. But by all means continue to live in Sleepy Ryans fantasy world of wind mills.🙄



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The idea that fracked gas is more polluting then coal is a controversial one, with very little evidence of it.

    The idea came from a study in 2010 or so, but the study was widely criticised for inaccuracies and scientific approach. Studies since then have found the opposite.

    But the whole idea is irrelevant. The idea isn’t for us to directly replace coal with gas, it is to replace coal with renewables supported by gas.

    In general coal doesn’t work well with renewables. It can’t be used for peaker plants with fast spin up and down times, that renewables need.

    The idea is for us to mostly use renewables, wind, etc. and only use the gas when the wind isn’t blowing. This should lead to a massive decrease in the amount of fossil fuels we use, either coal or gas. So let’s say for arguments sake, fracked lng gas was 20% more polluting than coal on a per unit basis. A grid that was mostly made up of wind, with gas used only when needed, would lead to vastly less fossil fuels used overall and thus less pollution, then a grid that primarily used coal.

    Of course non of us want to use gas long term, it is supposed to only be a transitory technology until we build more interconnectors, batteries, hydro and hydrogen to replace it supporting renewables.

    Post edited by bk on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭gjim


    No - peak oil theories always referred to something that was going to happen decades into the future.

    The change in energy markets is already clearly visible in the numbers. Fossil fuel consumption has more or less levelled off in the last ten years:

    For perspective, the previous century looked like



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,706 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Your graphs fail to include trends in energy consumption, which is a far bigger factor on fuel mix eg. consumption fell during Covid and various economic slowdowns, other factors like more fuel efficient transport and heating also important, not to mention milder winters ie. has FA all to do with so called green energy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Came across this while digging for info on a wind farm. I wasn't aware that BnM had so many wind farms in progress. Granted this is from 2020 so likely out of date but a hunt for something newer was fruitless




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,828 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I'm surprised they haven't proposed more solar on cut away bogs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,790 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Mainstream Renewable Power applying for investigational foreshore licence off Wexford

    https://www.southeastoffshorewind.ie/



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,454 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Does anyone know why getting a foreshore licence like the one above is such a big deal ? And does all marine activity need a foreshore licence ? ( I assume at least parts of the above application are for an " invasive " ( for want of a better term ) survey

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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