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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭Itxa


    It’s always the same on here and Irish message boards. Geniuses insulting journalists and refs and believing their opinion from behind a pseudonym is paramount. Good to know you think it’s a low bar. I’ll continue reading them with aplomb. You can rip people apart on here from behind your screen in total anonymity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Totally agree on all that.

    Ref may deem scrum to have stopped or not be progressing so will call use it to not have another stoppage and another scrum. Ifs nothing to do with not wanting to have more scrum penalties.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    I asked what Law allowed the ref to decide that he didn't want to reset the scrum. The attacking team shouldn't be put at a disadvantage because the ref doesn't want to do his job.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    This one since you want to be so aggressive about it.

    Law 20.4 THE TEAM THROWING THE BALL INTO THE SCRUM

    (e) When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

    (f) When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not, a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    few instructions to officials coming with refs meant to strictly adhere to timings around kicks at goal

    • Law 8.8d Conversion. [The kicker] takes the kick within 90 seconds (playing time) from the time the try was awarded, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed; 
    • Law 8.21: Penalty Kick: The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded;
    • Law 9.7d: A player must not waste time. Sanction Free-kick;
    • Law 18.12 Lineout: Teams form the lineout without delay. Sanction: Free-kick;
    • Law 19.4 Scrum: Teams must be ready to form the scrum within 30 seconds of the mark being made. Sanction: Free-kick.


    Also will be less reliance on TMO. Less involvement from water carriers



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    RFU lowering tackle height at all levels

    To support player welfare, the RFU Council agreed on Monday 16th January to lower the height of the tackle across the community game from July 1 2023.  


    https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-council-approves-lowering-of-the-tackle-height-across-community-rugby-in-england-2023



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    i dont know how they square this circle:


    BBC rugby union correspondent Chris Jones

    I understand the trial saw approximately a 67% increase in concussions, from an average of 0.6 a game in the regular Championship season, to 1 per match in the Championship Cup.

    The number of concussions from upright tackles did fall markedly - as was hoped - but there was a drastic increase in concussive incidents around the breakdown, when both the ball carrier and tackler were bent at the waist.

    i can see this being an unmitigated disaster



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Didn’t we discuss this quite a while ago?



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,514 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Just watching France-Ireland (6N) from 2000 and O'Driscoll puts in a big, chest-high hit on Bernat-Salles. The French commentators point out that in the English (sic) championship you [were] allowed tackle high as long as it wasn't above the shoulders. Does anyone know if there were different rules about tackle height between countries at the time or were the just talking nonsense?


    edit: think I'll go with nonsense as the same guys applaud 'a perfect tackle' by Pelous around Dawson's neck to stop him scoring.

    Post edited by pickarooney on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Super Rugby to trial Yellow Card upgrade process for 2023

    Yellow Card TMO reviews will take place after sanctioned players leave the field – upgrades possible to 20min red card

    TMO interruptions will be restricted to serious clear and obvious dangerous play

    Time limits will be enforced for kicks at goal, lineouts, scrums and rucks

    Scrum half no follow round at scrum

    Golden point (in 10min extra time) for drawn matches



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭TheRona


    The scrum half ruling could be huge. Players such as Ardie Savie attacking from the base of a scrum without having to deal with a scrum half lurking will be interesting.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,514 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    How far can the scrum half go? The centre line of the scrum?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Once the scrum begins, the scrum-half of the team not in possession must have both feet behind the ball and be close to scrum but not be in the space between flanker and number 8 of opposition or they can go back to offside line at their number 8s feet or return to 5 metres back with their backline



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    im not sure what i make of these new law variations coming in at super rugby.

    first off, one of the basic tenets of the game should be that the referee is the ultimate arbiter of the game. By allowing the TMO now be the main decision maker on any "iffy" red card offences, this will naturally, through human nature, result in referees being quicker to brandish yellow cards in possible red card situations, and leave the ultimate decision to the TMO

    the lesser TMO interventions in open play is to be welcomed.

    im a fan of the 20 minute red card, so no issue there

    the new scrum law will be interesting. i can imagine some unintended consequences where defensive teams will be more encouraged to wheel the scrum, because defenders will want to direct the 8 into the side with the extra defender (the scrum half). i general i dont think this will make a major difference to the running of the game, but it does take away particular skill of some scrum halves, and rewards the poorer no 8.

    golden point is great craic and great viewing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I agree about TMO influence. Wont agree about 20 minute red cards. red cards especially serious foul play should always see team down to 14 for remainder.

    Golden point at this level will be interesting to see



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    English womens coach wants a change in law for kicking conversions for women.

    He suggested if a try is scored within 5m of the touchline in women's rugby, the kicker should have the option to take the kick from 10m inside the touchline to reduce the distance to the posts.

    Think it should definitely be changed. any try scored outside of the 15m line should be kicked from the 15m. thats the law with younger age groups here and should be looked at older levels



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Strangely was thinking about that today and moving the kick in from the sidelines. Just no point in taking the kick if it hasn't a hope of making the distance.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Think it should definitely be changed. any try scored outside of the 15m line should be kicked from the 15m. thats the law with younger age groups here 

    i havent seen that in leinster? where do they utilise that particular amendment?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Ive seen it in Munster and Connacht with u13 boys, u14 girls. Think it should be case for youngest age groups where kids realistically wont be near kicking ball over bar..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    bizarre that the english coach would suggest this when they have had one of the best goalkickers in the world (mens or womens) for the last number of years in emily scarratt, some of their other options like zoe harrison are pretty decent too.

    not needed



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I dont see how its bizarre hes suggesting it. When he gives examples from his own team in games this season



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    it is bizarre seeing as they have had the best goalkicker in the womens game on their team for the last number of years, who has no problem with kicking from the touchline

    they also have a 13 at the moment in Tuima who can kick from the halfway line if the school of kicking videos are to be believed

    the example he gave was referring to holly aitchison, who doesnt regularly kick for her club as zoe harrsion (injured) is pretty good



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I dont think its bizarre as well as he is speaking of the womens game overall and you do see it at womens games with kickers. and lack of kicks compared to mens games.

    Look at the comments he made. stats mentioned in article about successful kicks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 700 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    The lack of distance place kicking may also mean that defending teams can offend more often, safe in the knowledge that penalty kicks at goal are not an option. For sides with the size & skills to defend lineout mauls this would be a huge plus.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,265 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    kiera bevan the welsh scrum half has come out with similar thoughts to mine

    ive already spoke on the fact that they have only kicked 8 out of 22 so far - its partly due to the fact that they are (were, she wont be kicking in the next game apparently) using an inexperienced kicker who isnt first choice for her club and is probably 4th or 5th choice at best if all options were fit and available.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Ollie woodburns red card (second yellow) in todays game.


    My own opinion is that its a terrible call and something that happens in almost every try thats scored.


    Anyone see it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Anyone see the Olly Woodburn red? Correct decision technically but I feel like that sort of thing happens all the time without punishment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Im not sure its technically correct, hes tackling a player, targeting the ball

    And if it is technically correct then every try thats scored with a defender making a tackle is liable to have a YC shown



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    As far as the penalty try goes i cant see how the ref has decided he wouldn't have gone to touch anyway.


    Mind boggling decision



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    The player was already tackled though, can't dive on a man on the floor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    I dont see that he did, he went after the ball, but i can see how the rule can be applied in this instance by an over zealous ref.

    That rule is in place for blatant late hits after the ball has been touched down.

    While the interpretation of the ‘tackle’ is iffy at best the awarding of a penalty try is hardly warranted as there is no way of knowing the first defender wasnt going to get him into touch anyway



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    The law in question is not reserved for players touching down. It applies everywhere on the pitch and the player just has to be near the ball.

    13.4 Players on their feet and without the ball must not fall on or over players on the ground who have the ball or who are near it. Sanction: Penalty.

    Murray Kinsella picked out an incident in an Ulster v Glasgow match where the same law was applied.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Big difference in the contact in both incidents.

    There may need to be clarification from the rule makers as to what IS allowed here because a new focus on something like this so late in the season when it hasnt been a problem all year could cause a lot of hassle.


    Take the stormers / munster game. https://youtu.be/6rXi0Kpglk0

    In the first maul try the stormers 5 flops onto grounded players, in the stormers maul try in the second half ben healy does the same, and over the leg of a downed stormers player.

    How are they different? And was the enforcement in the exeter game due to an officall and pre flagged emphasis on the rule or did dickinson just decide the time is right to enforce the rule?



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Cassius Hot Boardroom


    I will never, ever be convinced the decision against Woodburn was correct to the spirit of the law. If it is then you can just slide around the pitch and you're untouchable. Want to score? Just dive from 5m or 10m out, nobody can touch you. Are tap-tackles illegal now, as you are pretty much by definition off your feet making one?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,804 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Doesn't that give it even more credit. It is no benefit for him and his team, is actually a bad thing as it gives his opponents more scoring chance and yet he is still suggesting it.



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Just watched the Woodbury incident there. Utterly ridiculous. In the very first instance he didn't drive onto or over the player, he dived beside him to get an arm under and drive him to the sideline. No foul play at all in my opinion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,624 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    The call for diving on him is marginal at best, but to me the decision to award a penalty try is worse, there is no change in the players trajectory once woodburn comes in so he cant say that a try would have been scored were it not for woodburn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    I'm reading that law and your post and for the life of me can't see how a tap tackle comes under it. To make a tap tackle and fall on or over the player you're tackling would seem an impossibility.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Cassius Hot Boardroom


    When you make the tap you're going to be off your feet, and when you're off your feet you're out of the game apparently.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Off your feet in the air is a different concept. Player jumps up and slaps a ball back in, that's already over the sideline in the air. Off your feet on the ground totally different, a la James Hume.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Once on the ground he is offside and therefore out of the game though.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    no that doesnt existing anymore.

    the law is now that there must be one person on their feet over the ball in order for it to be a ruck and therefore an offside line formed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow


    Yes, it does. In fact, there's an entire section of the laws dedicated to this: https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/13

    See no. 3.

    Edit: disregard that, I see where you're coming from. Reading law 14, I think that Woodburn would have been an "other" player in the tackle (4. c (iii)). Thus, he would have broken 8. d, with the relevant sanction being a penalty.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    just to clarify, law 13 makes no reference whatsoever as to "offside"

    offside only occurs at a tackle or ruck when there is at least one player on their feet over the ball. In the woodburn situation, there was never a player on their feet at any stage, therefore there was never a question of anyone being offside.

    in your post above, 8 (d) isnt what Dickson penalised Woodburn on, it was 13 (4) which is quoted above. My viewing of it is woodburn isnt guilty of 13 (4) as he did not 'fall on or over a player on the ground', as different to the Hume incident from last year where Hume clearly falls onto the player.

    if you bring law 13 (4) to its nth degree in teh way Dickson reffed it, than any player diving for the line 5 meters out simply cannot be touched.

    its interesting to note that Dickson had been pulled up himself by world rugby on a similar incident

    in the above clip esterhuizen gets tap tackled by AJ McGinty, and the sub scrum half (whitely) slides in to dislodge the ball.

    anyone think theres a problem here??

    well world rugby seemingly read Dickson the riot act for not penalising whitley for "tackling" the player on the ground. Therefore this incident is very fresh in Dicksons mind when he sees Woodburn slide in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,043 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    As the tackle had been made and the players were on the ground, Woodburn would have had to enter the tackle area through the gate. Right?

    I'm glad it was penalised. I've long thought it should be. Hopefully it will discourage players diving in on try scorers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,976 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    For me that seems to be more the pertinent piece, and makes it different to trying to stop someone who has simply dived for the line.

    Tackle has already been made and player brought to ground. Therefore you can go after the ball but have to stay on your feet whilst doing so



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    No.

    There's no offside line formed until there's one player on their feet over the ball.

    Some people seem to think that tackles alone now create an off-side line, it doesn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    He is literally on top of the tackled player. And he pretty much got there in the same way as Hume did. Ground first, then player.




  • Subscribers Posts: 41,876 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Yes he may have ended up on the player, but thats not illegal, if it was ever tackle would be a penalty.

    its illegal to "dive on or over" a player on the ground. He didnt dive onto the player.

    In the screenshot below, woodburn is already on the ground before he makes contact with Ashton. in my opinion that physically makes it impossible for him to dive "on or over" a player because to dive assumes you start from an upright position.




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