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The drawing in the Times UK

  • 15-04-2023 2:16am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,417 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog



    I first saw this picture a couple of days a go that appeared in The Times UK newspaper. Didn't think much of it at first but seeing it again it strikes me as more than a little offensive (and the fact the "artist" sees fit to parade his work on social media) and the reaction to it since has been bad to say the least.

    Anyone who has a subscription to The Times Ireland - you basically help fund this which would be more in place in an edition of Punch rather than a modern newspaper.

    Overall I just think it's disappointing in 2023 to see caricatures and bigotry like this in a British national newspaper (of record, no less).

    As for Biden's visit, the jealousy, bitterness and supremacism on show from the British right media has been a real eye opener. This sums it up really.


    (incidentally looks more like Prince Charles tbh)

    (edit: was suppose to post in AH, if a mod wants to move feel free!)



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭Lawlesz


    This one was even worse, the sense of entitlement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    He "parades" his daily cartoon on twitter daily. I don't think his posting was unique for the Biden visit.

    My opinion is let them off. We don't need to prove anything to anyone. More we whine, the more insecure we sound.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Andrea B.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think you are getting a little too sensitive. This is common practice in media across the world. Here are a few recent examples of the Irish press running much more offensive stereotypical caricatures of British people living in NI. When it was raised on another thread, most posters thought it was great fun and that unionists needed to lighten up. You will see the press regulator also had no problem with it. So lighten up




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Senature


    I've been enjoying how horrified some of the British media are at Ireland and Irish affairs being given precedence over them this week.

    When Brexit was voted in, I believed there was an underlying sense of denial in the UK of their place in the world order. They are no longer the superpower that they were in their colonial heyday, many just didn't and still don't realise it.

    Many also have little awareness of the misery that millions across the world endured under their colonialism, including in Ireland. The perspective on this visit by Joe Biden is comical. Never mind the centuries of oppression and mass murder your country inflicted on it's neighbour, the real horror is that the US president is prioritising his relationship with that country over you for a few days...

    While it is vital for peace, security and stability that political alliances and 'friendships' are prioritised, many British are yet to grasp that they are no longer 'in charge' and that outside the UK, nobody wants them to be. On this island, and within Europe, they are now outliers. That is what they voted for, and they cemented it with the farce of the negotiations to leave the EU.

    The cartoon is without a doubt racist in nature, it would not be published if it were relating to an African or Asian country that was a former colony. But thankfully we are long past the days where this nonsense has any power over our society. Ireland has its own independent government and society, and our own international position and alliances, including with Britain. This rubbish drawing is simply a further reflection of their own sour grapes that the position of Britain as a falling star with waning influence has been projected in technicolor onto the world stage.

    In that sense, I am glad it was published, it makes it clear how many are really feeling, and how the legacy of colonialism lives on, no matter how much it is denied. It didn't take much for the mask to slip now did it?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    I'm loving the butthurt.

    Cartoon is $hite anyway, looks more like Bush or Charlie and Biden doesn't drink.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Senature


    I'm not sure why you believe the cartoon you are showing is much more offensive?

    Are you aware that during British colonisation of ireland, cartoons depicting Irish people as stupid and ape-like were hugely popular in the UK. They greatly contributed to the popular view that Irish people required the civilisation the British were violently enforcing as they were to stupid / drunk / etc to manage their own affairs.

    Racism requires one party to be in a dominant position to the other, with the support of legal or other systems. The British ruled the Irish during the period of those popular cartoons, they were part of the historical story of racism the Irish were subjected to under British rule.

    Therefore, this cartoon is not simply humorous stereotyping, the roots of it are far more sinister than that.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,547 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    A British right wing rag owned by Murdoch has a low opinion of the Irish? Can't say I'm shocked.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    “I've been enjoying how horrified some of the British media are at Ireland and Irish affairs being given precedence over them this week”

    Im surprised how horrified some of the Irish are at a Newspaper cation this week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I don't think it can be compared to Punch magazine.

    In the old Punch the Irish were depicted as ape-like aggressors, that wouldn't be allowed today.

    The dancing in a green suit is mildly politically incorrect. It's just a diddly-aye stereotype.

    I think it'd be an overreaction to get angry.

    That said sections of the British media must be fairly bored.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I thought this tweet I read just hits the mail on the head. Irish people need to think about this. You can’t have it both ways.

    “You aren’t TIRED of this. You plaster the same caricature on your Paddy Wagons. You dress up as leprechauns on St Patrick’s Day and at rugby matches. Your shops on O’Connell Street groan under the weight of this tat. Spare us the faux outrage. Either it’s good fun or it’s not.”

    and anyhow the dig is at Biden, not the Irish - unless of course you think he is Irish



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,417 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Remind us how much time the President of the United States spent in your backwater? 18 hours? 10 of those asleep. And "your" Prime Minister got a rather embarrassing shove aside at the airport and was blessed as a guest of Biden at a 5 minute coffee in what looked like a store room. I think the geo-political positions on these islands are being understood more. Act dishonest and clownish and be treated like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Senature


    You plaster the same caricature on your Paddy Wagons - What, where and when is this being plastered? By who?

    You dress up as leprechauns on St Patrick’s Day - It's often tourists do this, not many Irish people at all. The overwhelming majority of Irish people are wearing their normal clothes on St Patrick's Day, sometimes including or adding something green, or with shamrocks etc. Also, so what if someone puts on a fancy dress costume on the day of a festival?

    and at rugby matches - as above, overwhelming majority at matches wear normal clothes or sports tops, same as in all other countries

    Your shops on O’Connell Street groan under the weight of this tat - I agree, it is tat. Tourist tat. It is not Irish people buying it. Same as the tourist rubbish for sales in cities across the world, just like all the Royal family/Union Jack/Tube etc tat for sale in London. A very small handful of businesses make money from it.

    Overall, to me that tweet simply demonstrates that the person who wrote it does not know much about Irish people. They seem to be basing their view on the stereotypes, and a few people who are shown on tv at matches, precisely because they have dressed up.

    Do you think that a cartoon depicting descendants of African, Indian or Pakistani people as ridiculous dancing drunk caricatures would be acceptable for publication in the UK?

    BTW, I don't even think I'm too outraged, I think I'm not actually as outraged as I should be. I just don't feel like staying quiet this time.

    Other people, who are not Irish, telling Irish people all the reasons why this is not or should not be offensive to them, demonstrates the problem. People are actually smart enough to know what they see, and know what they have been subjected to in the past, even the ridiculous, dancing, drunk Irish people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,614 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,547 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I can only guess what you want me to get. Viewers will see different things in that cartoon. I see it as a go at Biden for thinking he is Irish and thinking he is dancing to their tune. I hear what people are saying on here about historical attitudes to the Irish, but tell me a people that do not have stereotypes thrown at them? If you paint yourselves as the jolly craicsters, who love their drink and fidlydee music, then don’t be surprised when some edjit draws a cartoon like this. Sure is only a bit of crack!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,819 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Who cares. The posters on this site are always on about permanently offended PC snowflakes and now this stupid cartoon is seen as a problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,059 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Leave them at it. If they want to stay in the past, let them. We've bigger more important things to sort out.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,547 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    And yet whenever anyone criticises unionists for their toxic stupidity, you're in hysterics. I've never painted myself as any sort of drunken craicster so your analogy is frankly daft.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Senature


    As already stated in this thread, it's not a harmless, fun, stereotype. It is a throwback to a system of oppression and racism, violently imposed on Irish people, by the British.

    Degrading cartoons depicting Irish people in a negative light helped maintain support for the inhumane rule of the British in Ireland. They were quite popular in the UK, and contributed to many British people having the opinion that Irish people are lesser beings than them. Less civilised, less educated, less intelligent, less capable etc. A view that remains among many, and that Irish people are well aware of.

    It's actually this view that has the British media in such a spin over events this week. You don't need to look far to see it.

    Comparisons with unionists are irrelevant. Unionists have never been forced to live under the laws of an Irish government for centuries against their will.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We need to drop the small man syndrome and start looking down our noses at the uk , inferior country people wise

    morris dancing knob heads



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    If someone born in Ireland can claim to be British why can't someone of Irish descent claim to be Irish ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    You need to think about what you are saying. Biden was on a visit to Ireland and he dropped in to the Uk for a few hours on his way. Of course Ireland would be his focus - that was the whole purpose of the trip.

    I hear some saying Sunak only had a short time with him. Sunak didn’t even attend bidens only engagement in Uk at ulster university as he said he is meeting him four months in a row ie March, April, may and June so no need. You are reading far too much into this all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 349 ✭✭Senature


    Really, I need to think about what I am saying. Me, a person who is posting on an Irish based message board is the one who needs to think about what I say about this, but according to you not the British media, which has influence around the world. How about yourself, do you think you need to think about what you are saying here, or is it just me?

    What is it that I am saying that I need to think about?

    I have replied to you several times on this thread, you have declined to respond to the points I have raised, and yet you declare that I need to think about what I am saying.

    You have your view, I disagree. I have explained why in some depth. You have not really engaged, just told me I'm wrong. No real points, arguments or explanations from you as to why.

    I agree it was a visit to Ireland, so the focus was on Ireland. That's precisely why the sh1tfit thrown by the British media in response is so ridiculous, and is the actual humour that has been published in the media about the visit, not that stupid, offensive, poorly drawn cartoon.

    Finally, I never mentioned Sunak in any of my posts so not sure why you did in your reply.





  • “and he dropped in to the Uk for a few hours on his way”

    Shouldn’t you be aiming your ire at the DUP for that, because I’m sure he would have stayed a wee while longer if Stormont was functioning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 FrattonFred


    No he wouldn’t. The whole thing was a self indulgent trip by an old man who has a romantic view of an Ireland his great great grandfather left 150 years ago. I’m amazed the US tax payer isn’t giving him more grief over this.





  • Er, yes he would. I’m sure his advisors and the State Dept would have advised him that this ‘romantic Ireland’ that you speak of doesn’t actually exist. He didn’t back Ireland’s position on corporation tax for example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    anyone can claim to be anything but I thought anyone born in Ireland is Irish. As I understand anyone in the world who is wealthy can buy an Irish passport, so yes, I guess Biden could become Irish if he wished. He can also currently claim to be Irish, Martian or whatever, but he is American. He has Irish ancestry but I understand he has 4 times as much English ancestry So is it any wonder cartoons like that appear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Most people in ni think he stayed too long. If he wants to do selfies with mass murderers of the people of ni then he shouldn’t expect the red carpet. He couldn’t even follow protocol with his flags on his car. I think you are blaming the wrong people for this one.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Well why could he not even bring himself to fly the flag of one part of the island but could the other. Of course he has fanciful romantic notions of ‘his homeland’.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,998 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    We've been through this before, Downcow. One part of the island doesn't have a flag; the other does. What else was the guy to do? It's not his fault that NI can't get it together to adopt a flag.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭cheese sandwich


    It was a stupid cartoon but hardly grossly offensive. Fintan O’Toole was having palpitations about it on Twitter - this is the guy who has made a great living since 2016 writing repeatedly that Brexit is the brainchild of racist idiot gammons. Not that I disagree, but if you’re going to throw shade constantly you need to be slightly less hysterical when the other side throw a bit back at you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 FrattonFred


    Oh come on, he went chasing ghosts in Knock and visited places some of his ancestors were from, ancestors that were economic migrants that went off to colonise the new world

    it was the equivalent of Leo going to India and visiting a few places in Mumbai where his granny was born and getting all teary eyed over it all at the tax payers expense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭cheese sandwich


    It was the equivalent of one of those tours to the commonwealth that the British royals periodically go on.

    Which, given the POTUS is basically an elected monarch, is fair enough



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 FrattonFred


    To a degree it is, although in many Commonwealth countries they will be visiting as the head of state of that country.

    Usually State visit are carefully planned though and aren't a self indulgent nostalgic homecoming for some old guy who still thinks it is 1860.

    Unless he is simply going over the top on the Irishness so he doesn't lose too many votes when he closes those tax loopholes he keeps talking about.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,538 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    In reality it was the first shot in the 2024 election campaign, we were just the scenery.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    You're right. Maybe one day we'll be less sentimental about silly pageantry like the country next door.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,547 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Remember when they had a convoy drive the crown through the centre of London?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 FrattonFred


    Maybe next year he could be a judge at the Rose of Tralee, or maybe he would settle for a few hours staring at a statue of our Lady the beloved blessed mother of the most holy queen of angels, waiting for it to move?

    It would make a nice change for a visitor to Ireland to not be dragged into a pub and a pint of Guinness shoved in front of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Yes maybe. It still wouldn't beat having a king ride through London in a gold carriage while a large amount of people rely on food banks. Biden can be sentimental if he wants. Not my style really but a large proportion of his voters are of similar mindset. He also has elected as opposed to being coronated.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 FrattonFred


    and when he was elected, they had a big fancy inauguration ceremony despite people errr, relying on foodbanks

    Just like the great expense the people of Mayo had to go to despite there being a homeless crisis.

    We could do this all day, so I'm not quite sure why you chose to drag King Charles in to it. Well. I am actually, but never mind



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Because a British newspaper draws Biden like a stereotype Irish man (as it exists in the head of Brexit voters) while the UK is going to be pulling a king around in a fairytale carriage. It's a lack of introspection at best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,538 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    What expense did the people of Mayo have to go to?

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,547 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's just good old fashioned English racism. Let's call it as it is. Back in the Brexit debate, they thought that India would just meekly accept whatever trade deal Empire 2.0 was going to offer.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 FrattonFred



    it was a fairly obvious piss take out of a president over doing the Irishness, or at least the American idea of being Irish

    Biden couldn’t have tried harder unless he dressed up as a leprechaun and drank Guinness while watching cumly maidens dancing at the crossroads.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    You understand wrong, 12 out of 16 of his great great grandparents are Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Great and I'm doing a fairly obvious p1ss take of Brits complaining about being broke but tolerating a golden carriage pulling around a king.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Arer you being deliberately obtuse in an effort to feel faux offended?

    1) The cartoon is not a depiction of 'Irish people', it's a depiction of an American president bedecking himself in paddywhackery because an election is coming up and he wants to play to a constituancy, 'oim Oirish, vote fur meeeeeeee!'. That's what is being mocked.

    2) Yawn.





  • Do you want Stormont up & running again? Me thinks you're happy with it not....





  • "Just like the great expense the people of Mayo had to go to despite there being a homeless crisis."

    What? It was free advertising that any region wanting to sell itself in the tourist market would die for.



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