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The Kerry Babies Case

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,014 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The Gard with a “connection to the family” most likely posted elsewhere in the country.

    If the local Gardai had a clue they’re unlikely to be spreading it about, unless you are involved with the Gardai.

    By cover up do you mean a cover up of the birth by the family or a cover up of the murder by the Gardai?



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Acorn 737


    To be fair the general idea of a cover up is that nobody will find out about it or ever have any inkling of the subject being covered up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    Interesting conjecture, but wholly unsupported by the reality on the ground locally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist




  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Acorn 737


    I’d fully agree with that, it would have been let slip at some point in a moment of weakness or after a few drinks or something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    If there was any local knowledge, and even the remotest attempt at a cover up there's no way it would have lasted without some whisper. That name never came up until after the arrests .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,065 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    It is hard to see the uncle who is dead also been the murderer ,he might have been involved in the cover up but been a young guard at the time ,he would have seen the ways of the world with countleess babies born to young mothers and they getting on with life.

    Imo it was the matriach who did the deed with full control over her family .Behind closed doors ,some of these matriachs are poisonous but on the outside all smilles



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Acorn 737


    Theres so many possibilities there though, apparently the child was alive for a few days, there’s always a chance they gave him to someone for adoption who decided to murder him. It would have been so difficult to explain that away that from the family’s point of view it was better to keep quiet about it rather than get jailed for a murder they may have had nothing to do with. Conjecture of course, but the possibility exists.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 17,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    How would adoption have worked without a birth cert? The pregnancy and birth were concealed, Baby John's murder was concealed and his body thrown in the sea.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    It may be hard to see, but it's likely we will never know for sure. Unless the couple add information we likely will kno nothing more than we do now. Even if they provide information, will it be true?? Likely only two living people know what happened, if even they know. Unlikely we will ever have a definite truth of what happened back then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Acorn 737


    Who knows? It’s just conjecture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,467 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    What happens is that the adoptive parents register themselves as the birth parents. If the birth was not reported, and the application is made for registration by another person it will not be detected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I think boardsies have implicated everyone in the family at this stage.

    The fact is, we may never know. My own feeling, with no knowledge of anything, is that the most likely scenario is that the mother in a post-partum psychosis may have done it, and the family rallied to conceal and to protect her.

    Perhaps wrongly in many people's eyes, but it would be a very human reaction to shield a young female relative who the family were protective of.

    Fully aware that's conjecture. And that's most likely what AGS are working off as well. It equally may not be the case at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    I never implicated anyone. We all have our theories. There are limited hard facts available, there is some information in the public domain,and some not quite so, that we may be pretty sure of. If people build their theory around this information, well and good,but some stuff is simply bizarre, or impossible. There was absolutely no cover up among locals. It's a small town, secrets are hard to keep.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15 anonymo203


    I wonder will we hear anymore about it if the DPP decides there’s not enough evidence to prosecute. Everyone in Kerry knows who the couple are now so I’d imagine they would want to clear their name if they didn’t murder Baby John. It was also such a massive story and injustice to Joanne Hayes that it can’t just be let go of either. It’s such a sad case though, whatever the circumstances were for the parents it must have been such a dark secret to keep for almost 40 years. I also have a lot of sympathy for their adult children. Imagine finding all this out, that the Kerry Baby was their biological sibling and to have your family’s darkest secrets all over the news.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,014 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    " having lived in the area for a hell of a long time now.."

    What area, the area where Baby John was born or the area his parents moved to?



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,014 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Thanks, but are you from the area, if you know what I mean?



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,014 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Apologies, no I'm not from the area, but I live in the county.

    I'm a blow-in from another county and have lived in the county for a number years. I like to think I've integrated well, but I realise I'm not privy to a lot of the stuff being discussed in the pub. I've moved on a bit from talking about the weather and state of the roads, but when it comes to a conversation about local families I know my place. I only asked because of your spelling of Cahersiveen.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Xander10


    Agree, but while it may have been a human reaction to protect the mother, surely at some stage they would have had their conscience stirred and said something to aid Joanne Hayes ( another young woman) who they clearly knew was being treated wrongly and completely inhumanely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    In the time when correct spelling was something to be admired, there were at least three spellings of this towns name that were accepted. In the current era, spelling has little importance.

    I can assure you, that the current revelations are as much a surprise to all in this town as they are to anyone elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Partly agree.

    But, looking at the obscenity of the treatment of the Hayes family by the State, from a self-preservation point of view, could you really blame them if they kept their heads down?*

    The State, the press, and society at large was not turning it's best side out with this case. We're an intensely judgemental and vengeful race of people when the mood takes us.

    While postpartum psychosis is realtively well understood in 2023, in the 80s and beyond she'd have been branded a murderous witch, could have been strung-up by the the Gardai and prosecutors and a significant segment of society would have been calling for the rope for her.

    *This is of course, taking my hypothesis of it being the result of a post natal psychotic break as true. Which it may not be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,228 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    The term "partner" tends to be a generic description so could still mean wife, husband, boyfriend or girlfriend. Most reports say those arrested are a married couple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Post partum psychosis is very unlikely imo. It seems to have been a well concealed pregnancy with no medical intervention. All hospitals and doctors were asked to provide details of recent births and pregnancies and this mother ( it would appear) never came to gardais attention. I don't believe hospital/doctors would have colluded with Gardai to keep this secret. If the mother/parents intended to keep the baby medical attention would have been sought - it seems the intention was always to dispose of this baby after birth like he never existed.

    I do accept though that the parents could have thought at the time that the baby was going to be given away to another family. However when a newborn baby was found murdered on a beach in Kerry these parents would have had to realise there was a high chance that was their baby.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    This was the 80s and it was (with what info we have) a woman in her late teens carrying a child out of wedlock in rural Ireland. Pregnancies of this sort were routinely concealed from family and medical professionals alike.

    I don't see how a death linked to a post partum psychosis event can be ruled out. In fact, I'd rank it as among the most likely of hypotheses.

    A quick search reveals that 1 in 1000 women will suffer a psychotic event after giving birth, and of those, 4% will commit infanticide. You'd have to think that a concealed pregnancy would exacerbate the risk.

    It tallies in my mind, and it's more common than one would think. And probably concealed more than you'd think as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Deeec


    It's possible but I still think it's unlikely. In your scenario this mother went through a concealed pregnancy, gave birth with no medical help, then had a mental episode and killed her baby violently. She then just got on with normal life, married her partner and had more babies. I don't think this scenario could have played out without this couple having serious issues - both of them. Would her partner not have been petrified to have more children with her, would she not have been afraid of having another baby herself?

    To me the murder of baby John was no accident - it was very deliberate and I don't think the mother was responsible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭hamburgham


    And if it was the father, would that also be psychosis or just a brutal murder?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    By definition if the father did it, of course it wasn't postpartum psychosis and he should cop a murder charge if there's evidence of it.

    Is it credible he killed the child in cold blood or indeed rage and they went on to live happily ever after? Possibly, but unlikely in my mind.

    Like everyone I'm engaging in speculation here, but the best explanation of all this series of grim events is a psychotic break by the young mother and out of protective (if misguided) instincts the family and partner decided cover it up and move on as best they could.

    We know the prevalence of infanticide in these circumstances, it's not as uncommon as one might think.

    Post edited by Yurt2 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,340 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Speculation that a whole community of people including gardai, medical professionals and their partners could all participate in a cover up given the attention this case got is silly and demonstrates no understanding or knowledge of a place like Cahersiveen then or now.

    The only possible cover-up and what I think is most likely is that a young Guard who's late father was a very much respected member of the organization, along with his family were protected by the local guards under the direction of their Sargent.

    They either kept information from the heavy gang and threw them off the scent, OR with the collusion of higher up officers, some of the investigators were also involved.

    It would be interesting to know who the local Sargent was at the time, his relationship or knowledge of that family including the deceased father particularly. It would be also interesting to know whether that man is alive or not today.

    “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command”



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  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    He is not. And if you had known him, you would know that what you are suggesting is impossible. Don't overthink or overcomplicate the issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,918 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Joanne and her family and friends and probably a huge crowd supporting them must want so bad to March to this couples house and beat down the door and demand answers



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭Banjo Carney


    Why didnt whoever is responsible for the death of baby John bury him on their land where he would never have been found ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,340 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Thank you. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm from 60 miles away in Kerry and I'm sure as hell not asking anyone I know from Cahersiveen about it.

    The family name is easy to figure out from Google search, and easy to guess which town the couple are currently living in.

    Straight question: Do you think there was any cover up apart from within the family which there obviously was?

    “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Xander10


    I wondered the same. Maybe the thoughts of the corpse buried in the garden was going to be too much of a daily reminder.

    They probably thought throwing it in the sea would wash the problem away.

    Ironically it washed up and became an issue for an entirely different family.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,580 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Everyone in Kerry knows who the couple are now.

    I don't and I'm still not bothered finding out until I hear something official.



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    My honest opinion?? At most 4 people knew. The couple and maybe one or two family members. Possible only 2 people knew. Probably only 3.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Xander10


    Do you think a serving member of the Gardai, at that time, knew?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,014 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    " Pregnancies of this sort were routinely concealed from family and medical professionals alike."

    A case I'm aware of where a young woman, early 20's, put on a bit of weight and was sent away to "stay with an aunt" for 6 months.

    She gave birth to a child who was taken away " to be cared for" 2 days later she was told her baby died. Her daddy came to pick her up.

    She went back to work and life went on, she never married or had any more children. It was never mentioned again.

    Until she died in her in her 60's. She was outlived by her 2 older sisters who it turned out knew about her 'sin' almost from day one.

    ...........

    A 17 year old concealing her pregnancy from everyone while staying at home is hard to believe.

    Was she living at home? Was she still at school ? Did she drop out of school? Did her friends wonder about her?

    She had an older brother, was he living at home? Other siblings, sisters? were they older than her? Were they living at home?

    In 1984, especially after charges against Joanne Hayes were dropped, people would have begun to wonder.

    This was huge news, nationally and internationally and gossip and rumours would have been rife.

    Or maybe Baby John's mother was sent away to "stay with a relative" for 6 months and came back with unwanted baggage?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    Possible. But only one. And not necessarily serving in the district at the time . Only my opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Xander10


    I'd say very probable as opposed to possible.

    They lived with the lie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭phormium


    While it can obviously be hard to conceal a pregnancy at home it's not impossible. Knew someone whose daughter arrived into her bedroom Christmas Eve and said I'm having a baby as in right now! They never suspected a thing and baby was born full term same night.



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist




  • Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    I went to school in the early 90's with a girl who successfully concealed her pregnancy right up until 7.5 months. Most of her year knew she was pregnant months before but nobody said a word to any adult.

    There was lots of finger pointing between her parents and the nuns at the school as to who should have spotted it when it was eventually spotted. She was the first pregnant girl that was allowed to keep attending the school for classes. Previous pregnant students had to study at home for fear that we'd all see a pregnant teen and would all want a baby.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Sure the nuns probably thought you could "catch the pregnant" from staying too long in the same room as her...

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Xander10




  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭myclist


    Maybe they don't. I only came here to suggest that people evaluate their theories in light of known or extremely likely facts. Any theory that starts with a maybe, needs the maybe proven first, or it's a castle built on sand. For me the simplest explanation fits the facts best. The more people that know something the harder it is to keep it secret. I think very few people knew. Possibly as few as two, unlikely more than 4 in my opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,014 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "They lived with the lie."

    Tormented enough by the lie to desecrate the grave and take a sledgehammer to the gravestone?

    A hell of a risk to take if it's the case, maybe didn't have too far to go carrying the sledgehammer?

    If only the tide hadn't brought the child's body up onto the beach! If only 'twas done differently! 35 odd years of that would drive you to drink.

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I don't get the "probable" on this theory at all.

    Statistically, it's far more likely that it was post-partum infanticide linked with psychosis.

    We know who the parents are for certain now, and the brother wasn't one of them.

    It's certainly a possibility he assisted in the disposal of the poor child's body to help cover up the incident, but we have nothing to say it's "probable" he killed the child.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Xander10


    But the person who damaged the grave might be some unconnected nutter?

    I personally never assumed it was a family member



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