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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,038 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I know if an attacker was chasing me at that house I would scream my lungs out and run towards the neighbours house. In running towards the neighbours house I would hope scare off the attacker. It puzzles me why she didnt run towards Alfies. There was no chance of running towards any form of help or safety by running towards the gate.

    However I know she may not have been thinking straight and just ran in what ever direction she could.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I don't think she ran at all. She walked, I believe. The destination were the gates and maybe somebody's car parked there? Either strangulation or the cavity block, she didn't expect it or didn't see what was coming. Somebody she knew or met briefly before or somebody she trusted.

    If she ran for her life she would have run towards Alfie's and Shirley's. She may not have liked them, but at least she would have had the possibility of witnesses. This in mind that she didn't like Alfie and Shirley, but it would have been better than nothing, in case of running for your life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    If she ran for her life she would have run towards Alfie's and Shirley's. She may not have liked them, but at least she would have had the possibility of witnesses. This in mind that she didn't like Alfie and Shirley, but it would have been better than nothing, in case of running for your life.

    Easy to say decades later from behind a keyboard.

    When you are running for your life you are running for your life, decisions on which way to run are not always available and obvious when being chased.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It is just a guess and a speculation, irrespective of being behind a keyboard or not.

    She was either walking somebody to the gates, and if she was running for her life screaming then Alfie and Shirley were not telling the truth. It's hard to believe they didn't hear anything if there was screaming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    I think that's the most realistic

    Bailey fancied himself as an artist

    But didn't he say he didn't recall meeting her ever



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Bailey is gas though

    He claimed he has some relevant information for the cold case review



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Benmann


    If she walked why was blood found on the way down? It was in front of the house or maybe on the grass I cannot remember exactly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The blood was found on a stone at the bottom of Sophie's lawn about a yard in from the gate that led in from the lane, not the gate with the blood on it.

    My thinking is the initial confrontation started there, whoever it was may have come into Sophie’s lawn through that gate. It was wide open on the morning of the murder which was unusual as Sophie wanted the gates kept closed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Xander10




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    A stone, I don’t how big or small ,

    I believe it was taken by forensics



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Benmann



    It was twenty five feet away [from the body] in a small field in front of the house and six foot from the wall of a pump house.Harbison noted a blood drop on a small stone which was embedded in the soil

    Sorry thought it was up in front of house. I still think she was attacked at the house and ran. Probably the way to Alfie's was blocked



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Down by this gate here;

    Over to the left you can see the other gate to the lane with the blood indicators still on it. Photos take before forensics took the gate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Benmann


    There is a claim on the People's Republic of Cork site that Harbison was drunk when he arrived in Cork having been to a party. One said "he had to be put to bed".

    I have never heard that before and would be doubtful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    He had just driven from Dublin that morning, at least a 5 hour journey then. He would had to have left before 5am.

    He was meticulous in his work, so I would be doubtful as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini


    The date of Sophie’s murder was Dr Harbison's birthday (23 December) and he wasn't able to travel to the murder scene that day; the following day, for some unexplained reason, he went by Garda car rather than helicopter, arriving 26 hours after the discovery of the body.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    “By helicopter”? Where did you see that?

    He didn’t even have a driver.

    Did he ever use a helicopter?

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini


    I read it in his obituary in the Independent - a helicopter would have been available for transporting the State Pathologist to a crime scene in some cases where for example access by road may not be available or for reasons of time etc., but in this case he appears to have been taken to the scene via Garda car: https://m.independent.ie/news/obituary-dr-john-harbison-39881768.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I think it's unfair all the flak that Dr. Harbison got. It's unrealistic to expect someone to be on call 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Yes, I fully acknowledge that the body being left exposed for so long reduced the likelihood of getting good DNA evidence etc, but everyone is entitled to a day off. It's not realistic to expect someone to be on call all year and not have days off where they can 'let their hair down'.

    It's the State's fault that they didn't have enough cover to account for his days off, illnesses etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    This Times article puts it a bit different;

    Arriving 26 hours after the body was found puts it at noon on Tues, yet he began the examination in Cork hospital at 2pm! It would have taken the best part of 2 hours to travel to Cork, leaving little time at the scene.

    I don’t know what time on Mon he was notified of the murder, but if it was near midday there would not be much daylight left by the time he got to Cork. The forensics team came from Dublin on Monday and didn’t arrive in Schull until 9 or 10 pm. Harbison would not have been able to do much at the scene after dark The Gardai had overruled the decision to move the body to Cork hospital. If the body had gone to Cork he may well have travelled on Mon. He made the decision any sensible person would make in the circumstances. Harbison’s delay in getting to the scene had nothing to do the failure of the investigation. What would have been different had he examined the scene and body on Mon night?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Xander10




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    But how would that have changed the course of the inquiry?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Given the body was out in the open, even with Harbinson getting there sooner it may have been difficult to establish time of death to a narrower range


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini


    100% agree with you. Dr Harbison repeatedly highlighted the need for those resources yet they were not forthcoming and weren’t put in place I think for some years after his retirement…



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Probably the most important missing data point but, yeah, the Gardai in Bandon ploughed on regardless.

    Sophie spoke to her husband by phone at 11 pm and was found dead at 10 am the following morning. That 11 hour window leaves open all kinds of scenarios for the investigation. Any trained observer should have been able to narrow that window i.e. rigor mortis begins to set in about 2 hours after death, affecting first the small muscles (notably the face) and gradually spreading to the larger muscles (e.g. limbs) until the whole body is stiff after 6 - 8 hours. Then the body stays stiff for another 12 hours before rigor mortis disappears ie 20 - 24 hours after death.

    If the Gardai had observed the process of rigor mortis setting in and leaving the body, they should have been able to narrow the 11 hour window down to a couple of hours which would have eliminated a number of possible lines of enquiry (including e.g. Ian Bailey, if the murder was before 2am)

    After all these years and court appearances (and murder conviction in France!), the Gardai have never given any indication regarding the actual time of death. My guess is that when the State Pathologist arrived (long after rigor mortis left the body), he would have asked the Gardai for their observations of the body and he just got slack-jawed bewilderment from Gardai who had never dealt with a murder before and who just left her body lying where they found it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Dr Marie Cassidy was appointed deputy to John Harbison a year after Sophie's murder in 1998.

    John Harbison retired 6 years later and Cassidy succeeded him as state pathologist in 2004.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    With the benefit of new information that Harbison didn't have at the time, we know Sophie was killed sometime between midnight Sun and 10am Mon. Ian Bailey had no alibi other than Jules from when he left the pub around midnight until around 2 pm Mon. So no matter what Harbison estimated the time of death to be between midnight and 10am Bailey's alibi was going to be busted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Caquas


    What new information?

    Even the Gardai are working on the basis that Bailey has an alibi until around 2 pm.

    In any case, my point remains that the abysmal failure to collect any worthwhile forensic evidence from the scene of a brutal murder is compounded by the Garda failure to observe rigor mortis in the corpse that day.

    After a quarter-century of investigation and trials, we know no more about this horrible murder than was apparent on the morning her body was discovered. Let that be the investigators’ epitaph.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Perhaps slightly off topic, but a French court delivered another dodgy in absentia guilty verdict in a high-profile case. Similar to the Bailey trial in Paris, resplendent with dodgy uncorroborated evidence rejected previously, but they delivered a guilty verdict nontheless. Political pressure to bring the trial was highly likely, another thing one suspects was a feature of the Bailey trial.

    Canada unlikely to extradite the man to France on the reading of this article.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Xander10


    Could have been shortly after 11 pm that night or 9 am next morning.



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