Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

🙄

I'm not being a dick.

Munster fans are repeatedly making an argument that Munster are in some sort of especially weak position that of course necessitates going out and spending money (the favoured option generally over the past 10 years), when others are rightfully highlighting how their situation isn't different to the other provinces.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

So you're including Frawley presumably for Leinster, even though he's started two games at 10 in 3 years, but not Rory Scannell at 10 for Munster?

Of the other 5 actual outhalves for Leinster, one has likely already played his last game for Leinster, and two of the others are year 1 Academy players at present. The two remaining are as likely to be in Ireland squads post-JS as the two Munster outhalves.

Your 4 Connacht out halves includes Conor Fitzgerald who is leaving this season and Harry West (a Year 1 Academy player).

No, but my point was, it's not realistic to classify either as a 10, and it's disingenuous to include Frawley and not Scannell.

I don't know Scannell's numbers, but I think Frawley has started 2 games at 10 in the past 3 seasons; while starting more games at 15, and over 22 games at 12.

I doubt Scannell has started at 10 for Munster in the same time period, but don't have the stats to hand beyond this season.

Neither province clearly see those players as 10s it would appear, and the actual gametime speaks to this more than anything else. For comparison, Leinster have listed Ryan Baird as a lock on their website too, but he's started there once this season while starting 9 times at blindside.

What is ironic here is that when Andy Farrell turned to Frawley as a 10 option (after Harry Byrne got hurt in NZ), it was predominantly Munster fans making the exact point I'm now making, that he has barely played any rugby at 10 in years, and isn't seen by Leinster as a 10. It can't be both ways.

He started versus the Maori because there was no other option after Harry Byrne got hurt - he was named as a centre on the Irish Rugby release for that tour.

After he went relatively well there, clearly Andy Farrell and Co decided to take a closer look at him at 10, and intended to give him minutes at 10 on the EI Tour, but he got hurt against Benetton.

He's started at 10 for Leinster twice in the past 3 seasons - while he came through as a young 10, clearly Lancaster and Cullen haven't ever really seen him as one.

Once again - I'm not the one here trying to claim Rory Scannell is a 10, I'm just saying it's fairly clear Leinster don't really see Ciaran Frawley as one either.

Once again - you're using statistics to paint a somewhat misleading picture, and it's beyond tiresome at this stage.

Frawley only has 35 starts, so 10 sounds like a lot, until you break it down and realise 8 of those starts came prior to 2020. Saying the "most recent of which was this season", when 1 start was this season.

And, fwiw, Scannell started twice at 10 for Munster, once against Dragons in 2015/16 and once against Cardiff in 2014/15.

I'll make the same point I've made now though on about 5 prior occasions - I'm not arguing Rory Scannell is a 10 option for Munster. But I'm saying Ciaran Frawley is not credibly viewed as a 10 option for Leinster either. There is no other way to dress this up - he's started 2 games there in 3 seasons.

So, if someone is going to list out options for teams at 10 next season, the fair and consistent thing to do would be to take the same approach, and exclude both of them.

So, next season, Leinster will only have 2 senior OHs, the Byrne brothers, and 2 Academy OHs.

Munster will have 2 senior OHs, and 1 Academy OH (though they haven't yet announced their academy intake for next year, and it very well could include Dylan Hicks.

The two Leinster OHs are as likely as the two Munster OHs to be in the Irish squad as well.

Injuries are a risk for all players. It's not a differentiator either.

3 OH options (with potentially another player to be added to the Academy) is sufficient depth. The situation this year, with 3 OHs at a roughly similar stage of development and ability in Carbery, Crowley and Healy is more of an anomaly than the norm.

What Munster should be asking themselves is why Tony Butler has only made 1 appearance total - off the bench against Wasps when two thirds of the team had COVID, in the past 2 seasons. Charlie Tector (less than 1 month older) has played 6 times for Leinster over the same period, while Sam Prendergast has more minutes for Leinster than Butler has for Munster.

Yeah, heaven forbid we actually use our own common sense and critique those numbers to see if they make sense.