Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Punching anyone in the face, the effects can be serious, dangerous, and so safely rules and regulations are introduced all the time in sports to ensure player’s safety. Do you think it would be unreasonable to discipline a player for deliberately spiking the ball into a players face? Players in all sorts of sports have been disciplined for tweets disagreeing with referee’s decisions, I’m sure it wouldn’t be beyond the bounds of possibility to change the rules to mitigate the sorts of injuries being reported in an article I looked up (because I’ll be honest, seeing a girl take a ball to the face is not something I wish to actually see, and I can avoid it by simply not viewing the clip in the tweet) -

https://news.yahoo.com/female-volleyball-player-testifies-physical-185218911.html

You haven't answered the question at all.

You are the only now saying changing the rules will make it fair, when the rules are already the same for most sports like the ones I mentioned. You said they can be changed to make them more "equal".

I just want an example of what rules can be changed to make it more equal, other than keeping sports segregated by sex as they are now.

1 example, just 1.

Nice try, I said sex not gender.

I know you said sex, I said gender. What’s your problem now? You asked for one example to make any sport more equal, and you got it. You surely don’t expect I’m going to limit myself to playing by your rules when we’re both equals already? Or when I say equal, do you imagine I think we’re the same?

I only ask because I’m still trying to figure out if you actually believe jockeys and basketball players emerge from the womb on a saddle with a basketball in hand, or is it actually a fact that all humans are created equal?

My “problem” is the same as it has been, we now have a movement that try and mark this resistance to biological males competing in female sports (at the expense of females) as some form of oppression. It’s just another manifestation of male privilege and biological women getting fucked over again in society.

No clue (again) with what you mean by equal and if humans are created equal. For a start, we aren’t created, we are an evolved species, nothing created us. Of course jockeys etc don’t emerge with a sporting tool, don’t be so facetious. Sports and games have rules and so forth, you were saying maybe there is a way to make them more “equal”, I’ve asked for how that is possible and what could be done. If it’s some sort of quip that games and sports are geared towards males more, and that’s why we see the different results/numbers etc over females, that’s just a fickle way of skipping over the biological facts that males and females are vastly different.

You already know this though, look at soccer, rugby, boxing, tennis or any sport requiring physical output. There is your evidence, and that is why sports are segregated by sex. To make it equal.

How could it "only happen if it were a deliberate act"? Maybe at Olympic level, the skill levels are so high that you could have a suspicion about it, but you could never prove it, since intent is a state of mind. But, at high school level, I don't think you could even have a reasonable suspicion. In any case, it's not against the rules. You could never outlaw it because you could never tell the difference between a deliberate and an accidental hit. It's not like rugby where specific kinds of tackle are against the rules, because they are dangerous, they aren't an essential part of the game, and most important they can easily be identified. Though it's interesting that the net is 19 cm lower in women's volleyball. So, people who played the male game definitely have an advantage when it comes to spiking, if they switch to the women's game.

“a manifestation of male privilege” 🙄

When did you get so woke Frank? 😂

You tell me not to be so facetious while you pretend you don’t understand what’s meant by all humans are created equal and how it applies in the context of Human Rights; you were even able to cite from the Declaration of Independence so there’s no doubt you at least have a passing familiarity with the concept, yet you expect I should treat you like you’re an idiot. I’m not going to do that, but what I will do is point out that I was referring to how it applies in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights -

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

You can argue the toss about how the word ‘brotherhood’ is yet another example of male privilege if you like 😒

Yes I did, and no I won’t forget about thuggish behaviour because while the essence of any sport is indeed the physical and psychological contest, the sad reality is that there are a tiny number of absolute bell-ends who don’t care about anyone but themselves. They should be rooted out of any sport. Fairly basic stuff that applies in any domain, that even if one never played sports, they could understand that much.

It’s taught from childhood, yet some adults persist in their thinking that nobody else is relevant in their world, “facts don’t care about feelings” type numbnuts. I’ve no doubt you’ve experienced them at some point in your life.

I wouldn't plodder, tbh, because I'm not going to watch the video. From her testimony given before the State legislature it appears McNabb was left physically and mentally incapacitated by her injuries, which is enough indication as far as I'm concerned that the video is gruesome - not something I want to witness -

First step anyways would be to refer to the code of conduct, and we're not off to a great start -

Page not found - USA Volleyball

So check the Governance manual -

The official USA Volleyball Indoor Rules Book (adobe.com)

Then interview the player in question to allow them the chance to explain themselves, and determine appropriate sanctions thereafter.

Then review if there is a significant issue with players receiving facial injuries during play, and if there is - introduce mandatory face shields as part of the rules of participating in the game. Some players may not like the idea, but it's for the safety of all players of the game. I'm not concerned with whether or not soccer players should or shouldn't wear protective gear, but if there's an issue with players receiving concussion injuries as a result of heading the ball for example, then those governing the rules of the sport should review the issue, and it appears they're doing that -

Brain injury expert calls for ban on heading in football - BBC Sport

Helmets IMO are a fcuking abomination, they're uncomfortable af, but there is overwhelming evidence that they are effective in reducing the risk of severe injuries, and on that basis it's not an unreasonable measure to introduce, that if anyone wants to participate in the sport, it's made clear to them that they must wear the proper equipment in order to participate in the sport.

Then take it from me. There's no way you can tell if it was deliberate or accidental.

The rule book you linked says nothing about what happens, or should happen to the ball (other than the rules related to point scoring) after it passes over the net. You can hit it as hard as you like. One assumes you are expected to hit it as hard as you can, in order to score the point.

Changing the rules like that is just not going to happen.

Introducing helmets to women's sport to protect them from males, is not going to happen imo. Though it seems they are used by some in volleyball. So, they are allowed.

So, you think everyone who engages in or watches boxing is a scumbag. Right so.

This post would hilarious if it wasn't so blinded.

I don't need to be "woke" to use terms like I have. I have a pretty good understanding of history and it's plain for anyone to see, in particular in restricting women's rights over the years, like abortion access, being able to vote etc. So no, I am not taking the piss, believe it or not you don't have to be "woke" (useless term) to be an advocate for women's rights. I was raised by very strong and important women to me, so give me a break with using "woke" when I am just being a good bloody human.

Where in the law does it say someone has a "right" to participate in sports? What of the obstacles in the way (outside of rights) that would prohibit someone, like the money needed for motorsport for example? Are they being denied a "right" because they don't have the money to take part in that sport?

I am not expecting anyone to adhere to my "beliefs", this is my position and it goes against yours, and it is easy to cut through your position because it is mostly anti-science and has "feelings" applied to it. You mention human rights but that has no bearing on sports or this topic, you are indeed blinded by a faith based ideology, I have asked multiple times for an example of this "equal" playing field you are trying to pedal. You have yet to answer that still.

So why are you posting anything in this thread? Do you have any interest in sports at all? (I will say you don't based on this)

So that means boxing, MMA, judo, taekwondo, kick boxing, Thai boxing, all are somehow offensive to you?

Where in the law does it say someone has a "right" to participate in sports?

Participation in sport is recognised as a human right under the terms of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), as a component of ‘participation in the cultural life of the community’. It has also been declared a human right in the Council of Europe’s Sport for All Charter, the UNESCO International Charter of Physical Education, Physical Activity and Sport and the Olympic Charter. UN member states which have ratified the legal treaties associated with the UDHR undertake to assure the rights involved and to submit periodical reports to the UN on their progress in doing so.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/16138171.2022.2032920?journalCode=ress20

To re-iterate... If you think that the rules of any sport are illegal under Irish human rights law then you or anyone else is free to challenge the rules on that basis. Until such a challenge is upheld then all that is is your perspective Nobody, including sports bodies, is bound to operate under your perspective until someone gets that perspective established through a court ruling. Funnily enough there is absolutely no sign or trace of that happening whatsoever.

You are factually incorrect. For example, the IRFU clearly limit entry to the female category based on sex assigned at birth, irrespective of gender :

Edited to add... they also clearly indicate that there are 2 Irish transwomen who are affected by these rules. That also makes your hypothesis that no one is actually affected in the real world factually incorrect.

Those 2, and anyone else, are free to challenge the rules on that basis. Nobody, including sports bodies, is bound to operate under your perspective until someone gets that perspective established through a court ruling. Funnily enough, there is absolutely no sign or trace of that happening whatsoever.

That’s ONE organisation in Ireland which have updated their policies only recently! How many sports organisations do you think there are in Ireland?

I didn’t say nobody was affected either - you stated that it was funny there wasn’t a case. I pointed out that it isn’t unusual that there isn’t a case when Irish sporting organisations don’t discriminate against people on the basis of gender, meaning that they’re already inclusive, there wouldn’t be a case, unlike the few cases there have been in employment for example where employers have been found to be in breach of equality legislation.

The ‘perspective’ as you put it, is already established in Irish law where organisations ARE permitted by law to discriminate in circumstances where there are reasonable grounds for doing so. I wouldn’t expect there to be a case any time soon either, not only because sporting organisations are already inclusive, but because of the negative consequences for any individual who chooses to pursue a case against an organisation where they feel they have been the victim of unlawful discrimination. Most people who experience discrimination are acutely aware of the fact that they’re in a poor position to be able to do anything about it, even if they did qualify for free legal aid, as Lydia Foy did when they pursued a legal challenge to the discrimination perpetrated by the State, which is how the GRA came into Irish law. Only took 20 years.

Are you saying that excluding anyone from participating in the female category whose sex is not assigned female at birth (THe stated IRFU policy) is in fact not discriminatory? A Straightforward yes or no is all that is required here. Not a ream of irrelevance. Either it is or it isn't.

Example answer from me : My opinion is that it is not discrimination.

So if you don't think it is unlawful then all sports are free to implement the same broad policy, in your opinion. And indeed international governing bodies, such as FINA and World Athletics have already done so. The broad policy being sex-defined rules for deciding access to the female category.

Thank you for the straight answer. We obviously disagree on that. In both cases that is just personal opinion.

Hopefully, you'll agree that the rules and laws are what really count in the real world. If those rules are in fact perfectly legal, we're all good. I've no problem accepting you disagree with the rules, but I'm happy to hear that you think they are legally sound and therefore do not meet the required legal criteria to be discrimination on the grounds of gender.

I’d say come back with those goalposts, but you’re already well out of earshot 😂

Probably the worst person to be asking about morals, I don’t have any 😂

But seriously though, I wouldn’t put it in those terms. I think it’s unreasonable and irrational, and if the only way it can be justified is by appealing to people’s prejudices, then it becomes a bit more complex because it’s a question of whether the person is knowingly telling lies, or whether they’re just ignorant.

The latter is understandable, forgivable even. The former- not so much.

OK then...

Can you explain to me how you think it is legally sound for the IRFU to have rules restricting access to the female category on the basis of sex-based, as opposed to gender-based, rules, but it would not be legally sound for other sports bodies to implement rules restricting access to the female category on the basis of sex-based, as opposed to gender-based, rules.

I agree entirely with your last paragraph. No dispute there! I think the opinion you express in the second paragraph falls under the 3rd paragraph's "not worth **** in a court of law", just as much as everything else. My opinion is that an Irish court will be well capable of distinguishing between gender and sex (in legal, as well as real-world terms). (Also subject to paragraph 3 there of course)

Its fairly clear you neither care about nor really understand sport.

Given the way you’re misrepresenting my opinion, I can understand why you’re of the opinion I neither care nor really understand sport. I’m not entirely certain you’re doing so deliberately either. Do you reckon Chris Mosier neither cares about nor really understands sport?

I am neither knowingly telling lies, not just ignorant of the issues at play here - I am as aware of the issues as someone with a passing interest who reads what studies are available can be. You are welcome to claim my view is based on prejudices instead if you so choose I guess.

I wasn’t referring to you! 🤨 I was referring to grifter types who knowingly peddle misleading and false claims about other people in an attempt to appeal to prejudices they hope exist in other people.

The reason they’re able to use it as a wedge issue is simply because more people are becoming more aware of the concept of being transgender. Not too many people actually care about the obstinate extremes as they don’t really give a toss for the culture wars nonsense.

There you go again with the appalling vista stuff that there’s simply no basis for it given the way sports have developed and evolved over centuries and millennia and they haven’t fallen apart or changed beyond all recognition. There simply aren’t enough people who are transgender in society to even make any sort of a sizeable impact on any of the thousands of sports which exist. You want to zero in on the sports where you can only see issues arising, as though there aren’t discrepancies which exist within the sport as it currently exists.

I’m not any more comfortable with the idea of men being pummelled either, by anyone who is capable of doing so, regardless of their sex or gender. By way of example, it would clearly be an unfair contest to expect Conor McGregor to fight Mike Tyson. There wouldn’t be enough of McGregor left to scrape into a doggie bag to take home!