Is it time to join Nato

Well it helps. It helps the much larger national European forces.

And gets certain bases and priviliges in return.

There are around 1.4m active personnel throughout EU member countries.

US troops are up to ~100k since Ukraine, normally kept about 60k.

So by those numbers US defends this continent by about 7%.

Wow. Just wow.

(We'll leave the roughly 3 million reserves out).

I don't think we need to join NATO but do take issue with that a bit (part below).

I think more EU common defence, probably strongly linked with NATO because most of the same countries are members of both EU and NATO, is coming down the track (eventually). I suppose I am a pro EU person who wants Ireland to take part in all aspects of it as it develops, not be be a half-in half-out member despite where we are located. That's generally been the govt. policy where possible.

I can see a day coming where Ireland is going to be lonely on these matters due to automatic pacifism, a mistrust and dislike of all things military. It's a wonderful luxury of our geography and history that we can maintain that, good for us but I don't expect endless patience with it from either the large member states or many others who are otherwise similar to us (small peaceful EU member states), but not so blessed as they are closer to military threats from the hostile states (Russia, Turkey) on the EU borders. Their reality is a bit different.

Especially if govt. here actively tries to disrupt, undermine and hamper more cooperation at EU level (rather than just not take part if it conflicts with neutrality and stay out of the way of it, as seems to be policy with FF-FG). I mean that is not a far fetched scenario with a likely SF led Irish govt IMO, which will be the most anti-EU one ever (and quite sympathetic to that left wing student morality play view of world politics with US & UK / "the West" as the ultimate "Baddies"). (If it happens) SF's certainly not going to be elected because the Irish public badly want a very eurosceptic govt. with potentially dangerous and dodgy foreign policy, but that won't change how SF could behave at EU level going on history of the party.

Anyway I would prefer if somehow the military and defence was a bit more "normalised" here in coming years, that we work now to create something that looks very similar to militaries of other small member states even if we are not joining NATO ourselves. We're a long way from that at the moment I think. Getting there involves fixing the problems with defence forces and, yes, buying some new equipment (not toys and not necessarily fancy)

Well over here in Europe there is. Im sure the US is number 1 on paper globally, but I don't really care about globally, when you have to sail across an ocean the numbers tend to flip a little.

😄

It means over here, in Europe, (where you live) European capabilities are far beyond American capabilities.

American deployed forces in Europe cant build large scale armored vehicle factories for example, or recruit 10k locals but Europe does have that capability.

The full forces of America can do all those things in America alright, but America is an ocean away, so why should I care. They may as well be on the moon as far its relevant.

OK then. Theres some mad international incident or some fantasy circumstance whereby American forces deployed in Europe are at war with their respective host countries.

Who wins.

And so help me. I will be heard in Tokyo.

Will be interesting to find out what else he said.

Think Australian submarines.

I didn't talk about what Ireland can do directly of course. I was just reacting to someone wanting to do negotiations with ppl who just lie and kill without a second thought. I'm not seeing what could possibly be achieved.

Just some food for thought on the issue. (published 20/04/23)

(full article paywalled below content from teddit : https://teddit.net/r/europe/comments/12t7lyb/european_union_plans_to_create_land_air_and/)

The European Union could have its own special forces commandos under controversial plans for a rapid reaction force of 5,000 troops, The Telegraph can disclose.

The proposals aim to create a “land, air and maritime” force that could be deployed quickly to intervene anywhere in the world, particularly to safeguard the evacuation of officials and staff.

Its formation could allow the EU to “respond decisively and prevent and manage crises in order to assert itself as a more credible security and defence actor”, according to a report by EU officials and MEPs.

Original plans for the expeditionary force were drawn up after the flawed US withdrawal from Afghanistan in August 2021, when EU leaders said the bloc needed the ability to operate independently of the US and Nato.

The joint military force could be deployable without the unanimous support of the EU’s 27 member states in order to prevent it becoming snarled up in political wrangling.

..................................

Additionally, US 2024 presidential candidate Donald "Best in the world" Trump was recently in the news mentioning that the money spent in Ukraine could be better spent on domestic issues. (see approx 01:10). Which is understandable, as a presidents first priority is his/her own people, not foreigners on other continents.

.............................................

Also upon reading the top article up above, I decided to poke around for news of the EU rapid reaction force, and found a 14 year old youtube video about the EU rapid reaction force. Which would suggest the EU is long term committed to bringing EU member state forces together. (Irish troops happened to be the first ones seen in the video, as the eufor mission to chad was featured in the intro).

We are going to have an increasingly integrated EU member military structure. We cannot rely on US voters to not elect a president with an isolationist outlook.

Our place is in that EU military structure, which for us in Ireland is all we'll need.

Im pretty sure that those 5000 troops would be on Irish soil in the drop of a hat if we should need them. So any threat would need to bring at least 12,000 +1 men if they want our capture our precious .... eh, bauxite mines (?).

And we already do our own little bit for the EU and UN.

So yeah the EU will protect us, and I don't see where exactly nato fits in in this context.

nope, those 5000 will be rapid reaction, unanimity is not needed. speed of deployment is the whole point.

under the command of Brussels, so a French right-wing president, or a German left-wing chancellor won't make a difference. Just dial 1800-Blitzkrieg.