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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,470 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    even in the mid 90s you could have driven from Malin Head and been on the road home in that time. It doesn't help much in narrowing down the potential suspects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Except it was likely someone in the locality that knew she was there at that particular date



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,470 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    but without evidence to link someone to the crime scene it could have been anyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Not particularly.....

    Wasn't somebody using Sophie's cottage to have a bath in.. probably sleep over too....?

    What if this individual wasn't expecting Sophie to be at home?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,975 ✭✭✭Xander10




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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Someone in the locality but not necessarily from the locality!

    Didn't she have the locks changed once this was discovered (quite some time before the murder) and it subsequently stopped?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It was in front of the house, most notably at the door. It is the door at the back side of her house, I believe it's facing West, towards Alfie and Shirley. That's also the thing that sunned me always about this case:

    If she either walked or ran down to the gates and met her death there, how come the blood is at the door of her house?

    Was she injured in an attack right at the door and ran to the gate possibly screaming, or did she walk slowly with somebody to the gates to be killed then and there.

    And then the killer came back to her house, looked around for something and made the stain of blood at the door himself?

    Also, if she ran screaming how come Alfie and Shirley didn't hear a thing.

    Either way, lot's of options, lot's of loose ends and unanswered questions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Even in the 1970ies forensics would have had the capability of narrowing the time of death to at least plus or minus 3 hours. I know this first hand from somebody who studied medicine in the 70ies in a mainland European university.

    The temperature at night time and during the day until forensics was at the scene was known and could have been factored in with ease. A time frame from 2am to 7am would have been to wide as a serious answer. That's a whole 5 hours.

    Harbison should have been able to give a time frame of 3 hours at least. If he was unable to do that, he would have either ben incompetent or lazy, or both.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Harbison should have been able to give a time frame of 3 hours at least. If he was unable to do that, he would have either ben incompetent or lazy, or both. the Gardai on the scene had made elementary observations about rigor mortis in the period after the body was discovered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The two Gardaí first on the scene, Prendiville and Byrne reported lighter coloured fresher blood around the face and neck. Doctor O'Connor arrived about 11am, he reported "Her nose and nostrils were covered in bloodstaining which to me appeared lighter in colour than the rest of the blood staining.” Nothing about "observing" rigor mortis. Dr O'Connor did not take the temperature of the body. Harbison arrived 24 hours later and he could only go on what he found.

    He started the autopsy at 2pm in Cork hospital, so death could have been anytime from 38 to 28 hours beforehand. If he was able to establish the time of the murder to within a couple of hours between midnight and 10am I'm sure Marie Farrell would have "seen" Bailey on the road at that particular time.

    As for Harbison driving down on Monday, one of the shortest days of the year, he would not have arrived till well after dark. Indeed the forensics team from Dublin did not arrive in Schull until 10pm, and they got lost trying to find the place. Calling Harbison incompetent or lazy or both or even drunk on his arrival is scurrilous, imo.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Caquas


    I didn’t realise a doctor was on the scene that morning but it seems he was no help to the State Pathologist.

    He sounds impressed that some blood on the body was a lighter colour. That is practically inevitable if the body was badly beaten and the head smashed. Could it possibly be that a practicing medical doctor does not know that arterial blood (being oxygenated) is a lighter colour than venous blood?

    I’m sorry, that would be an outrageous slur on a practicing doctor so the journalist must have garbled things but imagine the look on Harbison’s face if the good doctor repeated that quote to him as if he had a brilliant insight 😤

    One reason the various docu-dramas about this case don’t work as TV viewing is that they take the investigation seriously. The murder was horrendous but the investigation and the pursuit of Ian Bailey can only be treated as a farce.

    We hear no more of all that bould talk about the DNA yielding results once techniques improve. The parents of Baby John, probably the most notorious murder before this case, have been identified after almost 40 years but I don’t think the bozos in this case got any worthwhile samples from a crime scene strewn with blood and hair.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "Could it possibly be that a practicing medical doctor does not know that arterial blood (being oxygenated) is a lighter colour than venous blood?"

    Unlikely, and he would know that the darker drier blood around the site was older than the lighter coloured blood that "impressed" him. Garda Prendiville called it "wet" and Byrne called it "fresh". If Harbison was aware that there was wet fresh blood on the body 24 hours before he got to examine it, it's unlikely he would have considered the previous evening as his favoured time of death.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Benmann


    Bailey in the indo today saying his podcast is released he said it was originally to be someone asking him pointed questions and him answering but he has decided to do monologue instead



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious




  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Benmann


    I can't find it only trailers on spotify and podtail. Someone on twitter said it was 30 mins and had "Further contradictions re key parts of his narrative, clear implication that JT lied in her statements". If anyone finds it can they post the link.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I wouldn't pay much notice to contradictions at this stage. It's a quarter of a century since the murder. Easy to make errors after all that time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,470 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Memory, even very short term memory, is far less reliable than people think.

    https://www.livescience.com/human-behavior/short-term-memory-illusions-can-warp-human-recollections-just-seconds-after-events-study-suggests

    This has significant ramifications for the accuracy witness statements. A memory may be broadly correct but the details cannot be relied on without corroboration.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,131 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Add in alcohol and tiredness and even less reliable.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭robwen


    It's on the podcast addict app 33 minutes & 54 seconds long



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername




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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,470 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The point of the article is that it is not easy to remember detail. Details could be up to 30% inaccurate. Even short term memory is transformed by what we expect.

    As we reconstruct long term memories they become more and more like a game of Chinese whispers with ourselves as the detail becomes more and more transformed with each iteration by our perception and expectations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Benmann




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,307 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    On the bloodstain on the back door.

    From the DDP Report

    At page 23 of Dr. Geraldine O’Donnell’s statement, she refers to light bloodstaining of human origin being found on the outside surface of Sophie’s back door. (E.G.9) She was provided with an insufficient sample to identify the blood grouping.

    https://syndicatedanarchy.wordpress.com/

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The blood from the back door handle was tested again in 2002 in the UK after that DPP report and I believe the phrase the scientist used was "“very strong support” that the blood came from Sophie. The sample was not given to the French to test in 2011.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,307 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    It was always going to be odds on Sophie's blood..

    The question was did Sophie deposit it there herself - Maybe suggesting attack started at the cottage?

    Or was the blood deposited there when the murderer pulled the door to / pushed the door to open it (Sophies blood on his sleeves / cuffs)?

    I would suggest the latter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Someone checking/closing the door afterwards. Sophie would have already known that it was locked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    I believe the key was still inserted inside the internal lock of the door (bloodied door).

    This would be common enough practice for somebody retiring for the night, lock the door, leave the key in the lock.

    This may suggest that that Sophie had retired for the night, and headed to bed to take her last phone call from her Husband..

    Did Sophie open the door to an unexpected caller?

    Did she open the door to a know caller?

    Did she hear a noise down by the gate?

    Logically, one would assume that she opened the door with the intention of venturing out (dressed in boots). A caller to the door would not justify lacing up a pair of boots to be honest?? Would you not just invite them in out of the cold..?

    Everything pinpoints to the gate area - It all went down there... What brought her down there is the question?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "I believe the key was still inserted inside the internal lock of the door (bloodied door)."

    The door with the keys inserted is the front door;

    The door with the blood is the back door;

    There's no photo of inside back door, but there appears to be a Yale type lock.

    I'd agree with you, she probably left the house by the front door and went down the lawn to the gate that opened into her lawn.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    Do you agree that she was probably drawn there by a disturbance of some sort?

    If you do agree - Does that not suggest somebody within the locality? (Talking probabilities here.. Obviously figuratively speaking, it could have been Priscilla Presley, Kevin Keegan or Myself that did it, we were all capable of travelling to East Cork at the time.. Alas, realistically there's a good chance none of us did it).

    So following the line of probabilities... What would draw Sophie to the gate?

    Somebody cranking open or shutting the gate? An unruly party guest leaving Alfie Lyons house? An unplanned visitor making a call?

    I think either of the above would suggest a person within the locality, that's before we consider the randy guards of the Parish, or the peeping toms etc..

    It would appear that the initial assault taken place within the vicinity of the gate / lane way.. This is were most of the blood is lost. It is suggested that there were two blunt instruments used on Sophie, one being a rock or large pebble type weapon, the other being the concrete block.

    In my opinion, the smaller rock was used in the initial attack, it was a frenzied attack and probably caught Sophie off guard... She probably received a volley of rapid blows that dazed her, probably brought her to her knees.. I strongly suspect she knew who the attacker was, she would have to be silenced,

    The attacker knew she could identify him and panicked.

    He needed something heavier to finish her off.. Did he already know the top course of concrete blocks was loose on the pump house??? The soon to be murderer walked up to the bend with the sole intention of retrieving a heavier block, how did he know they were loose?

    Upon seeing this, did Sophie try to make her escape through the briars?? Was that her last option?

    So when the deed was done.. Why would the killer walk back up to the house to check the property or close the door?

    To enter the property increases the risk of detection.. He would have been bloodied and not thinking clearly, why would he bother if the door was open or shut? Why bother going back up the hill again anyway? Just get the hell out of there...



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