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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,577 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I'm guessing an assumption that it would avoid overnight track maintenance possessions.

    But they still happen on quad track lines!



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,019 ✭✭✭✭murphaph




  • Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭DoctorPan


    Oh the termination of Rosslare services at Greystones was nixed fairly early due to heavy pressure from Irish Rail due to the fear of public backlash despite it engineering an additional train a day each way.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Thanks for the update. I've advocated for the Greystones termination here before, and the push back here was something else, so yeah, I'm not surprised that they're nixing it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Thanks for confirming that. It would have gone down like a lead balloon.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,322 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Its interesting, while the NTA may not care about the Enterprise, it appears similar mistakes are happening again, as happened during the first Dart plan in the 80s.

    The failure to allow space for future expansion is the very reason why trains were touted as having to terminate at Greystones. Whatever about existing buildings, I don't understand why a development exclusion corridor wasn't set up in the 80s along the Dart line to allow future for expansion. As usual we think small and never for the future.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    IE procuring two separate contracts for construction consultancy services for design, procurement and technical support for delivery of 1) DART+ West and 2) DART+ West Depot

    I wonder will these be delivered as separate contracts.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/239154/1/0



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,577 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The GNR started making passive provision for both quad tracking and electrification before they were dissolved in to CIE/UTA. So ~60 years ago.

    CIE did not continue that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,834 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The documents are available to download from etenders without

    This is from the DART+ Programme Multi-Disciplinary Consultant Services for Phases 5-7 main document;

    DART+ Programme – Summary of Project Scopes

    The Scope of the DART+ Programme main Infrastructure Projects are as follows:

    DART+ West

    DART+ West consists of the Maynooth Line and the City Centre Enhancements. The full extent is detailed in Figure 1.

    The City Centre Capacity Enhancement aspects include the remodelling of Connolly Station and the development of Spencer Dock Station. 

    The Maynooth Line aspect of the DART+ Programme covers both the former Great Southern & Western Railways (GSWR) and the Midlands Great Western Railway (MGWR) lines in Dublin city. This area stretches from Connolly and Docklands stations to a location west of Maynooth on the Sligo Line and to the M3 Parkway Station near Dunboyne.

    The overall scope for the DART+ West consists of:

    • Electrification and re-signalling of the Maynooth/Dunboyne Line to Connolly & Docklands. 

    • Interlocking renewals, signalling additional lines and facilitation of bi-directional movements.

    • Infrastructural enhancement works at Connolly Station and associated approach junctions. 

    • New station at Spencer Dock and modifications to the associated approach junctions.

    • Permanent way modifications including around 4km of track lowering and additional stabling including Clonsilla, Maynooth, M3 Parkway as required for operations.

    • 4no. Bridge reconstructions and 2no. bridge modifications arising from corridor widening and electrical clearances.

    • 4 new footbridges at Ashtown, Coolmine, Porterstown, Clonsilla.

    • 26no. structures requiring parapet heightening.

    • Removal of the six level crossings along the Maynooth line and provision of necessary bridge/road relief infrastructure 

    • Ancillary civils, drainage and low voltage power work to cater for changes.


    DART+ South-West

    DART+ South West is the second infrastructural project of the DART+ programme which aims to increase rail capacity on the Kildare Line from 5,000 to 20,000 passengers per hour per direction. The project involves track works, electrification and re-signalling on the Kildare line from Hazelhatch & Celbridge to Dublin Heuston and through the Phoenix Park Tunnel (PPT) to the west side of Glasnevin Junction covering a distance of circa 20km. The full extent is detailed in Figure 2. Glasnevin Junction is the key interface between DART+ West and DART+ South West projects.

    The scope of DART+ South West includes the physical elements listed below:

    • Widening of the railway corridor and completing four tracking between Park West Station and Dublin Heuston (6 km);

    • Reconfiguration of the existing track layout

    • Approx. 2km of track lowering works  

    • 6 no.Bridge reconstructions & 1no. bridge modification arising from corridor widening and/or electrical clearances, as necessary;

    • Retaining walls along the route to facilitate corridor widening 

    • Slope stabilisation works on the GSWR line 

    • Provision for acoustic barrier installation along the route where required 

    • Improvements to the Phoenix Park Tunnel Line to support the projected capacity increase;

    • Provide passive provision for new stations, , at Kylemore and Cabra;

    • Construction of new station at Heuston West

    • Interlocking renewals, signalling additional lines and facilitation of bi-directional movements;

    • Renewal of operational and retail telecommunications systems;

    • Electrification and power supply from Hazelhatch to Dublin Heuston and through the Phoenix Park Tunnel to support the projected capacity increase; 

    • Provision of sidings near Hazelhatch; and Celbridge station

    • Ancillary civils, drainage and low voltage power to cater for the changes.


    DART+ Coastal

    Northern Line:

    • Electrification and power supply from Malahide to Drogheda [38km] to support the projected capacity increase;

    • Signalling and telecommunications infrastructure to support the projected capacity increase;

    • Bridge reconstructions arising from corridor widening and electrical clearances, as necessary;

    • Provide efficient train turnback facilities at Drogheda, Malahide and Clongriffin Stations;

    • Re-configure Howth Junction Station to facilitate shuttle working on the Howth Branch;

    • Re-configure and upgrade existing depots at Drogheda and Fairview to support the needs of the railway network; and ancillary and accommodation works as necessary based on design optimisation.

    • Possible upgrades of the existing electrification. 


    Southern Line:

    • Elimination of level crossings between the City Centre and Greystones;

    • Provision of an efficient turnback at Bray;

    • Bray-Greystones Capacity Enhancement; 

    • Provision of rolling stock stabling, as necessary; and

    • Ancillary and accommodation works as necessary based on design optimisation.

    • Possible upgrades of the existing electrification.


    Current Status of DART + Project

     The DART+ West preliminary design has been completed with the submission of the Railway Order to An Bord Pleanála having been lodged on 29th of July 2022 with the statutory process considered to take approximately 18 months. 

     The DART+ South West preliminary design has been completed with the submission of the Railway Order to An Bord Pleanála having been lodged on 22nd March 2023. 

     DART+ Coastal are continuing with the preliminary design development and are targeting submission of the Railway Order to An Bord Pleanála Q4 2023 for Coastal North and Q2 2024 Coastal South.

    Interesting that DART+ SW mentions "Provide passive provision for new stations at Kylemore and Cabra". DART+ Coastal South mentions "Elimination of level crossings between the City Centre and Greystones" which I presume doesn't mean elimination of all level crossings between the City Centre and Greystones.


    For DART+ West EMU Depot Multi-Disciplinary Consultant Services for Phases 5-7;                                 

    The overall scope for the DART+ West consists of:

    • Addition of a new maintenance depot connected to the Maynooth Line

    • New road bridge (OBG23A) and local road realignment to access the depot

    • 3km track realignment from Maynooth Station to west of OBG23A

    • Modification to Maynooth station to facilitate track realignment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 PolmacD


    With the Howth branch converting to a shuttle service (hence freeing up capacity on the remainder of the line), surely there’s an argument for constructing the Clongriffin-Dublin Airport spur as part of DART+ Coastal North?



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    As an engineer (Software) it makes me cringe when I hear things like this. Can we “just” add X, surely Y will be easy to add, is something we often hear in software projects and is what we call feature (or scope) creep and it is what leads to the massive ballooning in the cost and timelines for projects and can often lead to the complete failure of projects.

    I’ve no doubt it is the same and very likely much worse with infrastructure and rail projects.

    DART+ North is well on its way to complete design and railway order. So no, they can’t just add a line to th airport or quad tracking. Changes like that this late in the process would be like starting over again and just lead to bed case scenario, the project delayed by years and worst case scenario, cancelled.

    Best to just get the DART+ done as largely planned and then things like spur to the airport or intercity improvements can come in future projects.

    We really need to stop messing around with plans and just start building.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Not really, theres no spare capacity to the city centre to accommodate an airport service and the passenger demand between the airport and Clongriffin is about 0. Also such a route would offer a poor journey time even if there were capacity for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,577 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    No. The capacity released by changing Howth to shuttle will be all consumed by DART+ North itself. There will still be no capacity for an airport spur. Plus the points made above about the project being far too far in to planning to start fiddling with the design.

    Implementing DART to the airport properly is neither cheap nor easy.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,023 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    There'll be Metro to the airport. A DART spur will never be needed now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,019 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Ah I wouldn't say never. If the northern line is ever quad tracked it would be almost silly not to build a spur to the airport at some stage across flat open land. It would allow some interesting route options and connections with metro. The Berlin authorities once claimed that the U7 would never be extended to the aiport as it already has heavy rail, but guess what, it's back on the agenda. It's not "needed" but adds some very useful connections.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I fully expect the Metro to be extended further north of Swords once complete, think like how we extended Luas lines and one option is that we could have the Metro line spur over to the rail line so you could change for the airport there.

    I think the part some people forget about this conversation, the goal of the projects in this area, isn’t the airport, it is to connect Swords and open up all the land in North Dublin area for housing. The airport is just the cherry on top.

    A spur from Clongriffin doesn’t help with this goal, as the area the line passes through is under the airport flight paths and thus not suitable for housing. I won’t say it will never happen, but just wouldn’t be a priority compared to projects that open up housing locations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    If/when metro opens the only thing you'll hear about is demands for metro lines. And rightfully so in my opinion. The green line luas should be upgraded to metro and we should also have a Tallaght to Coolock metro line. Lucan luas should also be replace by a lucan-sandymount metro line, Lucan is too far from the centre to be bothering with on-street trams. We should also have 4 or 5 new luas lines serving inner suburbs.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I have always been favourably disposed to the Clongriffin to Airport spur.

    It is only 7 km over open countryside with few problems. Crossing the M1 and how to enter the airport being the biggest. It could be built quickly and provide great access to the airport - even if it was simply a shuttle service - interfacing with Dart and Enterprise.

    A 'small' project that is not sexy enough to build.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Lol small projects or large projects hardly ever get built. No metro and no decent stretches of cycle lane. Both ends of the scale are hopeless.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,019 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Yeah it's an easy win but needs the quad tracking in place to happen some day. Cheap as chips to build and could be extended westwards, maybe out to Dunboyne. You could run trains from Navan via Dunboyne and the airport to the city or something, opening up lands north of Blanchardstown for development. Even without extending it would offer nice interchange options for the airport and crucially (something that is often neglected) some redundancy should the metro be disrupted.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,834 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    For all the talk of how easy a DART airport spur would be, extending Metrolink to the northern line would be similarly easy but without the operational problems a DART spur would create. Much like Quad-tracking, there is a reason why it never progressed as a serious consideration.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yep a spur from Estuary would actually be shorter at just 4km, so potentially even cheaper to build. It also has the advantage that the area it would pass through isn’t part of the flight path, so those 4kms would be a prime location to redevelop as housing. Also no need to wait for quad tracking for it to happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,019 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Yes the extension of Metro to Donabate for example makes even more sense than the DART spur, but that doesn't render a DART-Aiport spur useless! Once again, there's an element of redundancy as well as new connections. Networks are built on connections, not single lines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,834 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Any DART spur would almost certainly be a shuttle as having DARTs go between city centre (assume Connolly) and airport would have limited frequency and would create unnecessary scheduling problems. In truth, heavy rail and DART rolling stock don't suit this use. Post Metrolink, there would be limited demand for such a service as it would be slower and less frequent than Metro (even with direct trains). The patronage would likely almost exclusively come from those living near a dozen or so northern line stations. If a shuttle, it doesn't need to be compatible with DART at all.

    A spur from Metro to DART would probably make more sense than the other way around. But that is also difficult and an unnecessary complication. A light rail people mover running between the airport and DART line would be easier, cheaper and much more achievable.

    It could then be bespoke and designed around its intended purpose. The journey time would be short, maybe 10 minutes, so high frequency could be achieved with possibly two trains. High frequency removs need for high capacity on vehicles, short trains, maybe only 20m, with mostly standing space and plenty of baggage racks would suffice. If compatible with Metrolink, it could use the same driverless system, be maintained at the same depot, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 PolmacD


    Agree with many of the points above, however Metrolink is still way off (if it happens at all) and connections to/from mainline Irish rail lines are fair from ideal. I still think there’s merit in linking the airport with the national rail network as happens in many other countries (many have both national rail and metro/trams links to airports). The northern line links the two largest cities on this island.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,577 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Metro extension to a Northern Line station plus the Glasnevin interchange will suffice really, plenty of airports have Metro or tram connections only.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,834 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    You can say Metrolink is still way off but it is a hell of a lot closer than an airport DART spur. Even post DART+ Coastal North, there are no paths for trains to the airport. And even if there was, it would be stupid to send 160m DART carriages to the airport when that level of capacity would not be needed. The DART spur sounds nice but it is not at all realistic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8 PolmacD


    I think the idea of JFK airport-style people mover train would also work as you described. Clongriffin (or which ever northern line stop is used) could allow for a one stop airport change for DART, Suburban, Intercity and Enterprise services. How would an additional stop and dwell time for some or all of the services impact on overall frequency/timetables?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,019 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    It's not realistic without quad tracking the northern line. It is entirely realistic after quad tracking but there are other priorities that the money would be better spent on initially. But finding paths for 3 DARTs an hour between Connolly and the airport post quad tracking would be a breeze. They wouldn't need to be full length if the capacity wasn't required but they could be full length in the even of a service interruption on metro north. Post quad tracking we'dactually be looking for things to fill the paths with and a direct Connolly-Airport service would be of interest to many. If the interconnector is ever built you could run direct Hazelhatch-Airport services. The northern line capacity post quad tracking would be immense, 20 tph in each direction would be achieveable just on the slow lines.

    I don't really get the "that's good enough" argument. The airport is a very good place to locate a transport hub and the costs would be minimal given the terrain. It's not a priority because rail based public transport is so dire in Dublin but if/when it is no longer dire then it seems like a reasonable step to me. Saying we should never build it seems rather odd given the relative ease with which it could be built.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    But quad tracking isn’t even on the agenda, not part of this Dart+ plan, so likely decades away.

    I wouldn’t say never, but I’d say a Metro spur to the Northern line is likely to happen before that and would be cheaper while having greater benefits, which would make such a spur less likely.



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