Enterprise refurbishment comes closer?

In relation to above 3kv DC brief mention, I’d mentioned in the DART+ forum recently, that the ‘Prorail’ railway national infrastructure provider in the Netherlands had concluded, that upgrading (maybe not ‘removing and replacing’) their extensive, and in parts intensive, 1.5kv DC network, into 3 kv DC system, would be a more competitive and optimum solution for various improvements, than replacement and conversion of their system into 25kv AC. 

The 3k DC over 1.5kv DC improvements Prorail identified were, and would be of potential relevance I think,.. to Irish Rail, and a future Enterprise service (and DART services), if electrified to Drogheda (to 1.5kv DC), would be more scope for, with 3kv DC;

- up 20% energy running cost savings,

- higher speed potential,

- better acceleration.      

Regards small fleets of intercity trains, there were a number of small ETR fleets 20 years ago, for a number of countries, with single, or dual voltages, at 3kv DC and/or 25kv AC in Spain, Italy, Slovakia etc. (different track gauges as well I think i.e. Spain).

In Spain, their rail infrastructure national company, ADIF, has had a recent pilot programme, to upgrade some 3kv substations on a part of their network, to allow for better recapture of regenerative braking energy back into the catenary system.

It might also be of some note, that previous French, and Russian, research had also looked at Medium voltage DC (MVDC) (to 6-11kv etc.) upgrades to 1.5kv DC 3kv DC respectively, to bridge some of the gap to 25kv AC advantages, and also avoid some of the 25kv AC disadvantages).    

Thanks for the info above! – It seems strange that in the last 20+ years, that there has been no change from the Diesel locomotive CoCo 160kph/ 100mph threshold (e.g. IE’s 201 slightly over that), and UKs Class 67 & Spanish 334's speed above that, but only in BoBo, to 200kph/125mph.  

Even the now seemingly popular, Stadler EuroDuals various versions, and Dual modes, also have max speeds to CoCo/ BoBo configurations that hit..these buffers!

By-the-by, this month's ‘Today’s Railways - Europe’ has two long articles on Irish Rail's 201 Class.

The magazine issue also includes news of a good few (smallish size) orders of EuroDuals e.g. BoBo, Eurolight Dual, bi-mode for Trenitalia – but… 20 tonnes axle load, for 160kph/100mph operation, and using 3000V DC - and Diesel.

(Unfortunately, nothing in the different orders seems to meets all the Enterprise various tender requirements/ operating parameters).

The Enterprise tender 110mph/176kph max speed reequirement, besides the hybrid operation, would seem an unusual choice - in that it looks like it would preclude a lot of rail products in general, that would only meet the usual 100mph/160kph standard.

Would this lock IE into a small trainset fleet, for years, that would not represent a much (speed) improvement on the just over 100mph max speed of the 201 Class?

 – and may – for the entirety of the consist – not have commonality with the rest of IEs fleets (currently, the 201s locomotive are common to IE fleet/network).

Which still brings me back around to the idea, that just:

- upgrading the 201s,.. maybe with two engines (and maybe loosing some of the traction motors, to make them like BoBo, but with trailers… CoCos with unpowered axles)???

…Or a new locomotive CoCo diesel at circa 100mph.

- And the rest of the train consist/ carriages to be to be - an electric, electric/diesel version of an existing IE fleet or,..

...something new, and much faster potential, and potential future use across the network new fleets  

(whichever, to be light on batteries, and heavy on diesel... given the longer distances to Belfast to be crossed), but to be later hived off - for use on its own without the locomotive, and up to its full speed potential, when the electric lines are up…

… That approach mid-term, might be preferrable to, in c.2027 buying into potentially complicated, combined sets, 110mph limit only - potentially for years,.. and weighted with 25kv AC equipment ready,.. but maybe only fitted at mid-life, c.2040 to actually operate to 25kv AC, and with a lot of heavy(?) batteries until then.   

Any word on the Enterprise replacement tender response?

(I'm aware that there is a similar thread that is more recent and related, but i dont think i saw anything there about any tender response either -

Further to that, have the possible contender mooted here previously - Hitachi IEP UK - Class 800s problems all been sorted, e.g. some cracks in bogies, and poor carpets and seats, or is that mostly old news and/ or online still moaning?!

Any other contenders raising their head e.g. some of the possibilities mentioned above, or other hybrids/ dual-modes floating around Europe or Japan, etc.?

Further to above ALC-42E comment, it would seem that bi-mode, and tri-mode trains fall under two categories - first either multiple units (MU) with under-carriage (&/or roof mounted) alternate power sources or second; multiple units (MU) with special middle carriage power-packs, or locomotives, with special trailers for the alternate power packs.

The first, presumably under-carriage positioned power packs, multiple units (MU) approach would seem to include the Hitachi A-train/ Class 802, & Italian Blues Commuter, CAF Civity bi-mode & tri-mode (Tri-mode for UK’s LNER), etc.

The second approach of special trailers, or middle carriage power-packs, seem to include the above mentioned dual-modes Siemens ALC-42E (big Diesel + battery, or panto’), and Talgo 250/Class 730, and the other variation in Stadler UK 756.

One potential problem with ‘swapping out’ and removing MU diesel engines in the future, especially with multiple, relatively small diesel engines per Multi-mode train sets e.g. under-carriage e.g. 3 & 5 engines in Class 802’s 5-car & 9-car sets - is what do you do with so many engines afterwards?

Do you just scrap them? Or fit them to another train…(though it may be simpler just to move on the entire MU trains to another line in more need of a hybrid option).

Then again, maybe Irish Rail might think that it will take so long to electrify the remainder Belfast line, to 25kV, especially on the NIR side, that any proposed MU diesel engines might by then be relatively old, so scrapping them may not be such a loss?

For any alternate medium term solution for Irish Rail - of a refurbed 201, or new loco’-based option - for Enterprise improvements (and Cork-Dublin?) – below list might be helpful for comparisons:

UK Class 67/ RENFE 333.1/334/Stadler 3000/4000/Eurolight/EuroDual UK 68,

&

UK Class 88 (Dual-mode 25kV AC & 940HP Diesel (similar to IR previous initial 121/141 Class power in Diesel mode))

&

UK Class 93 (Tri-mode (25kV AC,& 540HP battery & 1,200HP Diesel (similar to IR previous 181 Class & later 121/141 Class power in Diesel mode)) BoBo, and -German/Swiss Class 159/ELP, CoCo)

&

Stadler SALi (Spain 257 & Bolivia, CoCo)

– all above related to each other in lineage at least–

It should be possible I would have thought, for a new for IR loco’ of 180kph/112mph (or is it 110mph/176kph!), but ALSO to IRs 18.6t Axle Limit (probably needing a CoCo, or even A1A A1A arrangement)...

- and with whatever with trainset arrangement ..and maybe 1.5kV DC thrown in somewhere! –

Would the Euro9000 or SALi combination do it, but still the within IR’s axle weight, and required speed?...

Regards weight & arrangement - CoCos for electric locomotives are nothing new - there have been some 1.5kV DC locos’ in the past in Europe & Japan of CoCo and ‘Bo-Bo-Bo’ design e.g. French CC 7100, CC 6500 & Japan EF66/81/200s/500s).

Could the following be a better interim fix?... an IR 201 Class replacing its 1x 3,200HP diesel with:- 2 x 1,200HP Diesels (2,400HP combined, like old 071 total HP), PLUS with 1.5kV equipment added, PLUS 2 x c.483HP (c.966HP combined), or 3 x 483HP (1,449HP combined), Diesel-Battery hybrids in… 2, or 3 bogies replacing existing bogies in the Control cars and/or Generator vans (same trial bogies in 22000 Class DMUs).

(the 2, or 3 x powered bogies combined HP would be like IR's initial 121/141 Class, or a bit more than IR 181 Class & later 121/141, in HP totals).

Total Diesel HP, between re-engined 201 & above powered carriage bogies would be; 3,366Hp or 3,839HP, & the 1.5kV HP would be?

This might keep weight, cost and speed in acceptable limits, but combinations technically possible?

The 201 body shell could also possibly be replaced for lighter, and bogies altered for more flexible wheel alignment (reduce CoCo wheel scraping on curves).

Could similar could be later interim used in Cork-Dublin, and other 201s, and even 071s freight loco's?.

I’m not sure anyway that a Hitachi 80x type is a definite shoe-in for Enterprise…

We shouldn’t be too surprised maybe, if Alstom comes in with some variation of their already upcoming Irish Rails’ X-Trapolis (now Adessia?) Battery/ electric, but with Diesel thrown in - in some Coradia Continental/ Regiolis (& earlier AGC Bombardier) iteration.

As above, CAF could come in with their UK Tri-mode for LNER,.. (similar maybe to the EMU’s with ‘battery- technology’ for Spain’s RENFE also announced last year?), or could come in with Alstom for a joint tender?

For example, there seems to be some inter-play and similarities between Alstom’s X’trapolis Modular, and separate X’Trapolis (Tsíimin K'áak) Mayan Train route project (includes for 700km electrification, 44% of route) ‘Tren Maya Hybrid’ train (diesel with electric 25kV, or actually separate trains, can’t find the answer) - and CAF’s Civia.

These connections it seems, in competition tenders, and in both internal, and external designs, and potentially previously in manufacturing e.g. Civia for RENFE, and the Civia closely leading to the Civity – that is the Tri-mode for LNER.

It looks like CAF and Alstom may also have had some previous manufacturing co-operation with the dual-voltage RENFE Class 120/121 in the past, and I’m sure there are other examples of manufacturing tie-ins.

I wouldn't even mind getting Polish EMUs - like Newag 36WEh (electric/diesel hybrid, 160km/h on electric, 120km/h on diesel, each EMU of max 6 carriages, max three EMUs in a set, local or long-distance variants):

As different overhead voltage (3kV DC) shouldn't be an issue (NEWAG does multi-system locos already), European vs Irish loading gauge would probably be the biggest obstacle here…

(And yes, I'm aware of their last year's DRM-in-trains drama 😁)

There are actually multiple interesting (and flexible) European designs around (e.g. from Stadler).

I also don't really understand the whole HEP problem and the need to use generator cars - that seems like a problem solved long time ago in continental Europe - mostly for interoperability reasons.

I'm also not sure what went wrong with Class 201 as passenger diesels in Europe don't seem to have issues supplying HEP to the carriages even during a proper -20C winter or during a +30C summer… The power requirements are basically the same as IE ones - 30-40kW per car.

All carriages compliant with RIC regulations have to support four types of heating power supply: 1kV 16 2/3Hz AC, 1.5kV 50Hz AC, 1.5kV DC and 3kV DC. This allows them to be supplied directly from the catenary (via the loco) - either directly (DC) or via a traction transformer tap (AC). Diesel passenger locs (since at least 1960s) have a separate 400 - 500kW generator (AC or DC, depending on the country, but providing one of the standard voltages anyway) just for that purpose. That powers the heating directly (resistive heaters switched in series or in parallel - automatically) and, nowadays, it also powers all of the "hotel" needs (aircon, seating sockets, displays etc.) via inverters in each carriage. That simplifies the locomotive-side of things, provides interoperability (e.g. German carriages can operate in Poland, France, Italy etc.), higher voltages need lighter and thinner cables (in contrast to 3 phase 230V).

If still considering loco-hauled trains, IÉ should consider using at least part of the RIC standard (e.g. 1.5kV 50Hz AC and 1.5kV DC) for HEP - that would allow the carriages to be directly powered from the catenary when running in DART areas (DC) or on an electrified main-line (AC stepped down by traction transformer in the loco) or supplied by a 1.5kV DC generator on a diesel locomotive. This should be also cheaper to build as all of the equipment required already exists.

Getting back to Irish railways 😉

I think that going for new loco-hauled passenger trains doesn't really make sense anymore - unless IÉ would have a large stock of modern(-ish) passenger carriages to e.g. upgrade and reuse.

But otherwise, a modern *MU is going to be much better for intercity services like Enterprise (ordered in a proper medium/long-distance config of course).

And I personally would love to see something like Stadler Kiss e.g. on the Cork line 😉 (few years back I traveled on board the one operated by Westbahn between Vienna and Salzburg - very nice and comfy @200km/h).