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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    As a part of its Gripen procurement program, the Royal Thai Air Force ordered the air-launch version, the RBS 15F, to equip its Gripen fighter aircraft.[28][29].



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Ordered isn't operational.

    I'm just curious because this articles suggests the old air launched version had gone out of service and the new one isn't ready yet for the Gripen E. But I can find no details.

    There are photos and videos of Swedish aircraft (as above) with RBS missile. Unclear what version or if operational.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    It'd come in right handy if Jo Biden were to offer us a couple of dozen F15's and a pair of them destroyers they have mothballed, at "mates rates"....maybe throw in a few HIMARS into the bargain!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    The "Just-in-time" logistics model has been the bible for US based industry, keen to cut down on owning large warehouses of parts that soon become obsolete, or worse, get damaged or stolen. Instead you pass it back to the supplier, and let them decide whether they want to carry the same risk.

    I saw it first hand in Dell and Apple, who do not have warehouses at their manufacturing facilities, instead you find nearby a logistics hub holds all their stock, and possibly the rival's stock also..

    Fine in civilian life, madness in warfare.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Seems like the for all the vaunted modularity they've made so many changes through production that not all the aircraft are incompatible with each others parts. Which seems a colossal clusterf.

    Though efforts have been made to stabilize the situation, F-35 jets across the U.S. military continue to exist in many sub configurations, both in terms of hardware and software. The differences between very early jets and more recent production examples are so significant that it has become cost-prohibitive to continue to upgrade many of the former aircraft. Depots have also been clogged with older jets needing key fixes and enhancements to bring them up to speed. Some of the oldest types may only be used for a fraction of their planned service lives.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Meanwhile, the Gripen E permits certain parts to be 3d printed..



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The US isn’t alone in that, it’s been a major cause of the issues that the German military has for example. One of the previous Ministers thought it would be a cute way to cut costs without cutting anymore frontline equipment…



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    The fact is somewhere down the chain, someone still has to do the storage. The question is can the military supply chain rely on their prompt delivery and security?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think it was part of the issues with supplying Ukraine with gear, be it armour or aircraft. The logistics to supply and maintain some of the mothballed equipment, just isn't there anymore. It would have to restarted. No one wants to do that.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,759 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I read an article recently on just that issue. Pentagon has identified JIT as a serious pinch point in any effort to ramp up sustained operations.

    They are working on moving towards funding component and material stockpiles for multi year production.

    I will see if I can dig it out and post it. If memory serves it was on defense news.

    100% agree on JIT and the risk it carries for any defence companies reliant on it or on suppliers who are.

    Great for zero inventory commercial manufacturing. An Achilles heal to national defence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If there's a bright side to that particular issue, it'll be a live working exercise about logistics, supply and inventory and how quickly those can be consumed in a conflict - particularly when it comes to complex and eye-wateringly expensive smart ammunition.

    Hopefully it will lead to a massive rethink across NATO about stockpiling, because its clear that if the alliance had to fully commit to a defence of the territory, the consumables would be gone in days.

    I would note though, that this is undoubtedly a problem that also faces China and, as we know from the evidence, Russia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,759 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    US currently have a large logistics exercise underway.


    What is really needed tho is an exercise that focuses not just on movement and resupply of existing stocks. The US needs to ensure its defence manufacturers have a significant capability to surge production of everything and can only do that with security of stockpiled raw materials and components. The article i'd mentioned to

    @Dohvolle covers that suggested shift in US defence procurement practices was longer back than I'd thought. From Dec '22.

    The US model of prepositioned equipment in Europe, manned by maintenance troops with ramp up of troops when things get hot. Works well for Europe, the Pacific though? Is a different kettle of fish and the race to arm Australia, Taiwan, Philippines, and Japan along with strengthening US bases across the region is on.

    That said, Europe must step up it's effort to be able to fight and supply a large scale conflict. It's not all that long ago that Boris Johnson was cheerleading UK defence cuts with the mantra of there will never again be large scale tank on tank conflict in Europe 🤦‍♂️ Europe needs to ensure that without US land forces that it can sustain a conflict.

    A war with China will be fought across the Pacific and the US experience of combat transport and logistics is second to none. Where I would expect significant issues to crop up is restocking new build gear. The US has recognised that and is pivoting to address them.

    The Chinese have by dint of being a manufacturing powerhouse, a great grasp of logistics and their belt and braces project is an effort to lockdown raw materials on a scale similar to the Japanese greater East Asia co-prosperity sphere.

    The Russian version of logistics is lunacy, Trent Telenko on twitter has some good threads on their capabilities. Even basic palletisation and combat priority loading seems to be beyond the Russian army. Those were lessons the US and UK started learning in Dieppe and North Africa and spent the rest of WW2 perfecting. The US in particular.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Re Boris: I'm sure that's what his russian handler told him to say.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,475 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    "Just in time" delivery is supposed to take into account potential bottle necks in supply , and potential peak demand and work out the most cost effective / leanest way of ensuring supply -

    It's Toyotas baby , and even they got thrown by COVID ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Another perfect example of Ireland really needing to get their act together and purchase the relevant aircraft.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2023/0424/1378676-sudan-evacuation/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    I heard the Minister / DFA / Def on the radio this morning - he was thanking our EU partners who assisted overnight - as he should. However, the lack of air lift was put to him - he talked his way out of it - joint EU efforts etc - all correct - but IMHO the point is two years post Kabul our current capability is now even less than it was then then (limited to non existent) due to even older / damaged aircraft, and as a sovereign island nation we should have some capability. The new CASA on order was mentioned - ya we might have it nearly half a decade post Kabul ... what happens in the interim ?

    Cathal Berry in the RTE article above is absolutely 100% correct - this situation has been 'normalised' and it should be considered far from normal. We are still in 'hitch hiking' mode ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    100% agree. The poor spongers of Europe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    there'll definitely be another Learjet or 2 purchased before that happens... we can scrounge off others



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Even a long range biz-jet would have been able to get our people on the ground independently, in Djibouti, and not have to rely 100% on others for transport. Granted we would be still relying on them to get us in and out of Sudan. Imagine if we had an an A319 like the Luftwaffe?

    Not a fighter jet though



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    We should be pulling our diplomatic people etc. out early before the commercial services cease operating. If we are not prepared to invest in the resources to support them in a crisis situation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    The government jet situation is a bit of a joke - as I understand it the Govt doesn't want to make a decision on this - political football territory and all of that. However, the mature, adult conversation is we do live on an island and our elected leaders do have to travel about bit for various EU and international commitments etc whether we like to acknowledge this or not. Other ancillary benefits are for humanitarian emergencies or even flying personnel, independently at short notice as per the current Sudan situation.

    Also the current jet, as I understand it is presenting a lot of technical issues due to age etc. IMHO this presents a safety issue for the crew & passengers who travel upon it (I dunno if it is even fully operational now?). However, rather than face these truths we will pay dearly for short term jet rental and continue to patch up an aircraft which is probably near 'end of life' unless a small fortune is spent to usefully overhaul it. In a nutshell squander money rather than do the right thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    They sit on the fence on everything.

    You either have to accept running a jet is expensive or stop doing it. They seem to flip between scared to use it, or using it for inappropriate reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Politics is a b!tch. Any cent spent on a “government jet” is an open goal for the opposition who will find a hundred and one things that would magically be solved if the government weren’t “wasting money on a vanity project”. Doesn’t matter how much time such an aircraft might spend dosing other things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Directly? Nothing. Indirectly? Quite a bit.

    we can’t even get people out of a war zone and therefore further highlights how despicable the country has been towards the armed forces and any sort of craft that can move people in and out at a moments notice.

    relying on the French, Spanish, British, Germans et al because we can’t be bothered ourselves goes far further than do we need jets or not. It is a fundamental issue that the government can’t protect its citizens at home and if it weren’t for our eu partners, we wouldn’t be able to protect them abroad.

    its a disgrace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There are finite limits to every govts reach.

    Even if we had an aircraft, it's not unlikely we would leverage other countries resources as appropriate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    True but it doesn’t mean we don’t need to address the problem that our finite reach barely extends beyond our own airspace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Easier to do when you are bringing something to the table, rather than arriving empty handed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    Agree 100%, why should French or Spanish risk their lives when we put nothing on the table, let them bear the risk, cost etc .. you can do the beggar man for only so long ….



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