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Is this Notice of Termination valid?

  • 24-04-2023 12:53pm
    #1
    Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hi there,

    Lately my accountant asked me about the rent credit for last year and if I redeemed it. I hadn't, and so he said he would do it for me if I could get the relevant information from my letting agent.

    I contacted my letting agent 2-weeks ago about this information. Heard nothing back. Last week, I sent a follow-up email - and still nothing.

    Yet today I received the following bizarre email:

    "We will forward the relevant information to you on receipt.

    In the meantime it may be an opportune time to confirm to you that the owner has received an offer for the property and as a result will need to issue a termination notice to you as soon as outstanding matters are resolved. In the circumstances you may wish to consider moving to alternative accommodation should the opportunity arise.

    We wish to apologise for any inconvenience caused"

    An out of the blue termination notice.

    I've been staying here without issue for over 2-years. In fact, I'm now 1-month into my third year of tenancy here.

    The thing is, this letting agent has been very deceptive and slippery in the past and clearly played fast and loose with what he could get away with.

    I fear he's trying to get away with something here, but I'm unsure exactly how to play this. All I received was an email without any concrete details.

    Any advice is much appreciated, as I'm very unsure what to do here.



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,901 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    That’s not a termination notice. It’s politely asking you to leave.


    read it again.


    “he will need to”, but he hasn’t actually done it.





  • https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notices-of-termination



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You don't need any information from your landlord to claim the credit by the way.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't know the landlord name and PPS number, nor do I know the RTB number. These are the details that the CPA requested and the details the letting agent is so far refusing to give to me.

    Just to ensure I'm not forced out earlier than I need to be, what is the minimum number of days I can remain in the property after an official notice has been issued?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,636 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    https://www.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/notices-of-termination

    Minimum notice required from your landlord would appear to be 180 days.

    If you have a fixed term lease it might not be possible until the end of the fixed term depending on whether the lease had a relevant break clause but it would be at least the statutory 180 day minimum.

    Any notice for the reason of wanting to sell the property would also need an accompanying statutory declaration in order to be valid.

    As @ted1 has pointed out you haven't actually received any notice of termination yet, just a heads up that one might be on the way.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't believe it's a coincidence that my demand for that information re: rent credit, neatly coincides with this abrupt notice that I should leave the property.

    I don't even believe their claim that the property has been sold - it's an apartment block of 6 blocks of hundreds of apartments. Why would any prospective buyer of the entire lot choose to just evict me and not everyone?

    It makes no sense at all.

    Competing apartments of the same type as mine are going for an average of 400-500 euro per month more than what I'm paying. I think he wants to play on my naivety, get me out ASAP, and re-rent the apartment for the standard rate these days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    If you get a valid termination notice because the owner is selling you would just leave within the 6 months of notice. I wouldn't worry about who is buying the place it isn't really relevant. If it isn't sold within 9 months of you leaving or it's listed for rent again by the same owner you can report them to the RTB/request to move back in at the same rent. It's possible your request made them sell up if they aren't tax compliant etc. but there's nothing you can do about that now so no point thinking about it. I'd start looking for another place as the letting agent suggested, it might take a while to find in current situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    To issue a valid notice to quit they would have to be registered with the RTB so maybe that's what they meant by 'outstanding matters being resolved'. Don't go anywhere until you get a valid notice and check it with the RTB obviously.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Something dodgy is definitely up - and I would want to pursue this as far as I possible can.

    The letting agent already illegitimately raised my rent last year (cynically taking advantage of my naivety at the time), and the contract I signed is littered with clauses that are against the rights that tenants are entitled to.

    Should I report it to the RBT, or even Revenue Commissioners?

    Hmm...not sure what to do, but something must be done to fight against slippery, nasty letting agents like this, who think they can get away with anything and everything when it suits them.

    Note how it's phrased; that they will give me the details for the rent credit 'on receipt' of their correspondence about suddenly needing to leave the property.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,548 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    You are paying 400- 500 a month below the odds and you decide to stir up trouble.

    ?

    No Sympathy!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I didn't "stir up" trouble, I merely asked for the details that my CPA requested that I find.

    There was no antagonism on my part. I simply didn't receive any correspondence from them about the matter, and the time that I do, it comes with a notice to leave the property.

    If you are siding with an unscrupulous letting agent, I'm not sure what more I can say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭Kevrano


    For the rent credit, you need the RTB reference number. If the tenancy isn't registered with them, you can't apply for the credit. You should have received a letter from the RTB themselves with the ref number



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I see.

    Are all tenancies not obliged to be registered with RTB then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭Kevrano


    They should be yes, but I know people who tried to apply for the credit and got stuck at that point on the application, so I think there are some dodgy tenancies out there.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude in my first message.

    All the info you need for the credit can be found on your lease and RTB letter. You should get the 2022 payment in a couple of days (I did).



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't have an RTB letter, nor have I received one.

    My lease agreement doesn't mention the RTB either.

    I've since contacted RTB to ask about my tenancy.

    Also, apparently my apartment has been sold, but there's no mention of any sale of it on the official property sales website.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    You do not need to do anything yet because you have not received any notice, valid or not. WHEN you receive a notice of termination then the clock starts. You can of course check that the notice is valid with the RTB but even if it is not the landlord is serious about getting you out. At the moment the letting agent are chancing their arm hoping you will leave.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He fooled me once in the past with the illegitimate rent increase, he ain't going to succeed a second time.

    I haven't yet responded to their email, and I don't think I will.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You don’t need to, you haven’t received a notice of termination, valid or otherwise, just a heads up that one is in the way. At least this gives you an opportunity to grab something quickly if it becomes available.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    How do you know the property was sold?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't believe it has been sold.

    I checked this site earlier: https://www.propertypriceregister.ie

    My apartment is not listed as sold, either this year nor last year.

    There is no basis for the claim that the apartment has been sold. It's clearly part of the lie that the letting agent is giving off, as usual.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m confused, in your op, the quoted part you received from the EA said the owner has received an offer, have they now told you it has been sold?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Okay, that's a fair point.

    I missed that nuance. They stated, as you say, that the apartment has received an offer rather than having been sold.

    There is no evidence of sale, only an offer made.

    But that would be an even more bizarre reason to contact me and say I should seek alternative accommodation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭h2005


    It’s not that bizarre though if they are actively trying to sell the apartment. Sounds like they’re just giving you a heads up.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Perhaps, but given the history of dealing with this letting agent - their history of permanent deception and lies - it's sometimes not so easy to just take their comments at face value.

    Up to this point, there was no evidence to suggest they were selling the place.

    When you stitch that together with their now continued reluctance to provide any information relating to the rent credit, it suggests that something else is going on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭Aint Eazy Being Cheezy


    Chances are he’s not looking to sell but he also doesn’t want you claiming tax credits on the property, for reasons only known to himself. You keep calling the letting agent dodgy, but they take instructions off the property owner. If you can find a similar property elsewhere at the same money, then move. If not, I’d be inclined to stop asking for the details, hopefully the termination order never arrives, and be happy you’re paying €4/500 less a month. The tax credit is only worth that a year! Anyway, as people have said, those fields are optional, you could’ve still applied and said nothing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    For sure, and I'd say you're right.

    I haven't responded and will continue not to, for the reasons you cite.

    But if the letting agent hopes and persists that he can eliminate me with ease, hoping that nothing will come of it, then he has another thing coming. I've already put together a vast swathe of evidence to give to the RTB (and others) to point the relevant authorities in his direction.

    I'm just happy the letting agent is old - perhaps in his 60s. His time to scam others is limited, the scum of the Earth that he is.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Given the current climate in the rental sector, and the high price of property, it is fair to assume the owner does want to sell, particular if a good offer has been received.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,901 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Not if he has to pay CGT and Theres a possibility of relief been giving in the not so far future



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Doesn't the letting agent need to provide evidence that the property has indeed been sold?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Seriously, OP, it sounds like you're putting 2 and 2 together and getting 10.

    Just wait and see what happens next. You haven't been given any notice to leave, the apartment *clearly* hasn't been sold and it sounds like you've been paying below market rent since you moved in. Keep quiet and sit tight, is my advice.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I completely agree.

    Just when I saw the letting agent describe him telling me to find somewhere else as "an opportune moment", I thought otherwise.

    What kind of person describes telling another person they're about to lose their home as "an opportune moment".

    That's the kind of reason that has animated my fervour here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,234 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Quite literally anyone thinking of selling up and trying to make themselves feel better about it.

    My own brother described his wife selling the house I'd rented off her for 9 years and me having to move home to my parents last year as "a new chapter".



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Only when the notice of termination is served, which it hadn’t.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭Aint Eazy Being Cheezy


    “Animated my fervour” that’s a super phrase. If he does sell up, I’ll rent you a room in my gaff, you sound like a scream. 🙂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    Whatever about the legalities or otherwise of the situation here, I can't get past how the OP has such huge disdain for the letting agent by using words like slippery, nasty, unscrupulous and even "scum of the earth" to describe him, when the agent has actually doing OP a huge favour by facilitating an arrangement that saves OP somewhere from €400 to €500 a month, or up to €6,000 a year.

    And repeated mention of an "illegitimate" rent increase last year suggests that OP was paying even less for his first year or so of the tenancy, potentially saving up to €600 or even more per month on market rates for similar properties in the area.

    Personally I reckon I'd be keeping the head down and saying nothing, and continuing to save €500 per month with the current arrangement, instead of rocking the boat over potentially claiming a tax credit that's only worth €500 a year.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Personally I reckon I'd be keeping the head down and saying nothing, and continuing to save €500 per month with the current arrangement, instead of rocking the boat over potentially claiming a tax credit that's only worth €500 a year.

    That's the advice I'm taking alright from this thread.

    But just to layer more evidence onto why I'm always suspect of this letting agent, here are some of the clauses of the agreement that was signed at the beginning of the tenancy.

    You can see that it's littered with illegitimate clauses - all of which are at my expense, conveniently.

    Clause 18 below suggests I have already agreed to vacate within 2-months of the owner selling.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭dennyk


    That clause is not compliant with Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act and would therefore be void. Your landlord would need to issue you notice as required by the Act. A two-month notice would be invalid regardless of what your tenancy agreement says; your agreement doesn't override the law.

    You are also not responsible for repairs to the property or the provided furnishings or appliances; that is the responsibility of the landlord. If you cause damage beyond ordinary wear and tear, you could ultimately be held responsible for it and have to pay the cost (or have it deducted from your deposit), but your landlord would still be the one who would have to arrange and pay for any repairs up front.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,901 ✭✭✭✭ted1




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is there any rationale as to why I'd be issued a short-term letting agreement when the agreement itself states that it would last at least 1-year?

    I'm trying to understand the significance etc.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just received a response from RTB about locating my RTB number.

    They responded as follows:

    Thank you for your email submitted to the Investigations and Sanctions (I&S) Unit of the RTB dated 24th April 2023

    I have searched our register and could not locate a registration for the property, The information that you have provided has been sent to the registration enforcement unit for processing.

    Thank you for taking the time to submit this information to the RTB.  

    As I suspected, the property is not registered.

    Why would they avoid registering the property?

    Is there some tax issue involved possibly?

    Hmm...

    Does anyone know what kind of sanctions may be applied to the landlord?

    I'm now more than convinced that the reason for their sudden request for me to leave the property is related to this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    I registered i dont know how many tenants over the years and a couple of times i had accusations that I hadnt registered them. Last one was under the impression that i couldnt raise the rent on them after the previous tenant sent them a letter stating the rent they used to pay. So they asked the RTB, who said that I was not allowed to increase the rent by that amount, which I actually was allowed to under their rules at the time. Then they accused me of not being registered, accompanied by a similar response to the quoted mail, to their queries from the RTB. The funny thing is that I got a letter from the RTB a few weeks ago telling me to re-register tenants. They can go fcuk themselves at this point as i no longer even own the property.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭dennyk


    Could be any number of reasons; the landlord didn't know about the requirement to register, or they were too lazy, or they didn't want to pay the annual fees, or they thought they can get away with other shady nonsense more easily (evading income tax, claiming the CGT PPR exemption on the property when they do sell it, violating the Residential Tenancies Act with invalid termination notices or making illegal demands of their tenant, etc.) if the tenancy wasn't registered. As for sanctions, the RTB will just charge them a late fee for late registration at worst, but if the landlord is up to anything else shady, their situation might now come to the attention of Revenue via information sharing, who might conduct their own investigation or audit if they think the landlord has been doing something wrong tax-wise.

    It is certainly possible that the landlord was hoping that you wouldn't know your legal rights and that you'd just quietly feck off when asked to instead of bringing their failure to register to the attention of the RTB (and maybe Revenue) by trying to claim your tax credit. It remains to be seen whether they'll take the loss gracefully and leave things be or whether they'll double down and attempt to terminate your tenancy (legally or otherwise), though. Just in case, it might be wise to start looking around for alternatives; while you are legally entitled to 180 days of notice if they do have a valid reason to terminate, that's not as long as it sounds in the current rental market, unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,901 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    because some people are dodgy. And wilL issue out any documents that favour them

    in hope that no one notices



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    From my experience with the RTB id say all of that is as likely as hot tea staying in a chocolate teapot :)

    Its more likely that the RTB dont know their arse from their elbow tbh



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,548 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    O/P the way things are going, it looks like you will find yourself on the side of the road before long. In case you hadn't noticed, finding an alternative rental will be very difficult.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    True. Amazig how many people will wait til the last minute and then wonder why, with a couple of weeks left, they are looking at homelessness.

    Papers are full of that too.

    If it was me id be all guns blazing right away looking for somewhere to live. More chance of not being homeless in 6 months or a year if you get into action straight away.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I understand and accept that the landlord / letting agent will pull as many strings as possible to terminate my tenancy.

    I already surveyed Daft earlier today and there seems to be quite a lot of rentals available between 2.5 - 3.5k, which is fine for me.

    I doubt it would be that hard? Maybe for people who cannot afford a place to rent by themselves for that rate, but those rates are no problem for me (thankfully).

    But I can only really start any search when a legitimate notice to terminate comes my way.

    I've no doubt they'll try to scam my deposit out of me too (2.2k).



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