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Media silence over Niall Collins story

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭kaymin


    Maybe it wasn't a formal vote, but when the minutes say the members were in favour of the proposal then the members would have had to express that they were in favour, otherwise the minutes mis-represent what happened during the meeting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Ah come off it. Now you're going to argue about what's meant by 'transaction team' in my hypothetical scenario.

    He was part of the process. He clearly shouldn't have been.

    No employer in the world would accept he was in that meeting and forgot his wife wanted to buy the property.

    But in an employment situation Collins would have been long sacked for his other activities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭kaymin


    That's the Australian definition and you're conveniently leaving out the second part of the definition.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Because the second part is only there to disqualify the first not in addition to it. It means that if you have pension fund that is invested in the S&P500 you don't have to recuse yourself from any decision that might affect those companies (as an example).

    And sorry, yes it is Australian, I mis spoke there, but it still doesn't back up your point. By definition purchasing something at market value doesn't give you an expectation of profit or loss.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭kaymin


    Both the first and second parts of the definition set out the boundaries inbetween which an interest could be deemed a pecuniary interest - one shouldn't be quoted without the other otherwise its incomplete.

    People invest with a view to making a profit but they also appreciate it could also give rise to a loss. The fact that you buy at market value doesn't change this.

    Post edited by kaymin on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭stellamere


    Quite the generalisation. Granted, they are a different breed alright, but unfair to lable them as sociopaths. I've met a couple of sociopaths in my time and they're a good few rungs down the ladder.

    Politicians life goal isn't always power. You can't boil down human nature to just power (despite what is being thought these days). There are many examples of fine politicians & it's easy to knock our politicians and country. Of all the places and all the times to be living, we don't have it bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭stellamere


    Good point. No doubt that some of those crooked deals are coming home to roost, although you'd hope there isn't the same scope for planning corruption as there was before.

    A big part of the problem is our planning system is developer led, which has its benefits in a normal market as supply and demand would usually dictate fairly well what gets built where. But its been a long time since we had a normal property market.

    It's hard to fathom how the penny still hasn't really dropped with the government. I actually think they think they are doing everything they can to address the crises, but they aren't acting as if it is an emergency. I wonder are they under instructions to keep house prices high, for bank valuations. I doubt it but you have to wonder why they haven't given housing the covid treatment.

    Even v.v. unpalatable options, such as giving developers (and tradesmen) tax credits if they can fast track proper developments as well as land cpo and confiscation, should be on the table.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,660 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    By definition purchasing something at market value doesn't give you an expectation of profit or loss.

    You have to have the ability to buy it in the first place. It has to be available for you to buy. Before Collins didn't recuse himself, it wasn't available.

    That's the nub of the issue.

    He should have recused himself. If he doesn't resign (which he won't) the people of Limerick will decide what to do with him at the next GE.

    Also, lot of legal talk about interest.

    It's obvious, (using plain English,not legalese), that his partner had an interest in the site, otherwise she wouldn't have instigated the sale by contacting her solicitor to start the process of buying the land.

    That she said she was going to create a medical centre, but built five 2 room apartments instead, is definitely not illegal, but it is slightly distateful.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭TooTired123


    We can’t decide on any given instance wether or not we use the legal definition of different terms or not.

    His wife had no legal interest in that land. Wether or not the whole story leaves a nasty taste in the mouths of his constituents will be revealed at the next GE.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭kaymin


    But that's the point. There is no legal definition of pecuniary interest despite the claims of others so you have to use the commonly understood meaning of the term.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,969 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It won't.

    The number of potholes filled, medical cards secured and passport applications expedited will be remembered at the next General Election.

    Any other interpretation of constituency politics in Ireland would be mistaken.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    His boss at the time didn't have a bank account, loved brown envelopes and lied at tribunals. There was a culture of corruption all around Collins. FG promised sweeping reforms of local government in 'New Politics' and delivered nothing.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    This was not a vote to sell the land. It was voting on agreeing to move forward to the next stage of selling the land.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Yes the proposal to sell the land. This was not an official vote to sell the land.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    He didnt vote to dispose of the land though. You're being disingenous. It was a vote to agree to a proposal to dispose of the land.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,028 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    It was a motion binding the council executive to put the land on the market - land that otherwise would not have been available for any purchaser.

    One of the interested parties as we know was the spouse of a councillor who voted in that motion - which is a clear conflict of interest, seeing as she allegedly had contacted the council about the sale of those lands prior to the vote also.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,317 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,969 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'm only delighted to do it for free.

    Stupid nonsense like this is a waste of everyone's time, especially Dáil Éireann, when Christ knows there are enough genuine issues affecting people's lives that need addressing.

    I hope Collins uses the statement to eviscerate this trend of gutter hobby journalism from malign biased actors, whose only goal is to defame and destabilise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭TooTired123


    I don’t know is it any different anywhere else? All politics is local. People will vote for the guy/gal they like, everywhere. It’s pointless even discussing it, isn’t it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,660 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    What have they be doing the 6 weeks before this story broke in the Dail? Or the past 6 months?

    Has the housing crisis eased?

    No.

    Has the cost of living crisis eased?

    No.

    Have waiting lists in hospitals decreased?

    No.

    Have the amount of families in homeless accommodation decreased?

    No.

    Maybe these TD's could not make such stupid, basic mistakes like this, so we don't have to waste time dealing with it. If they actually do care about the genuine issues affecting people's lives.

    If everything The Ditch says is incorrect and everything that Collins did was ethically bove board I'm sure Collins (backed by his party no doubt) will have no problem suing them out of existence.



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  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I see we've now reached the 'if he doesn't sue, it must be true" stage. Absurd.

    Why on earth would he sue? He's not going to get anything for it, he'll just keep this in the press for even longer.

    The Ditch is never going to be able to give a pay-out to anyone. The Ditch exists to give Paddy Cosgrave legal cover. If he sues and wins, the Ditch disappears and Paddy sets up another site, and nothing really changes.

    This story will disappear all by itself, it has already changed significantly from what was originally reported, he just needs to make his statements then do nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,625 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    We hear this line all the time "it's a waste of time", "its a distraction", "it is taking the focus of the problems", all typical BS from government and their supporters to try and distract from the behavour of their party members. I often wonder would you be so blasé about this sort of thing if it was a SF TD?

    Every single TD in Dáil Eireann needs to be held to account, no matter how big or small the alleged transgression is, and yes that includes the TD's coming in and facing questions. If they have nothing to hide then it should be no problem answering some questions and clearing up the matter. Maybe we can say by the government attempting to ignore this for over a week is what has led to excuses like you trot out.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    It was a motion binding the council executive to put the land on the market

    No it wasn't. This again is completely false, and another great example of the misinformation out there. A LEA has no power to do what you suggest.

    It was a proposal put forward and seconded (and neither the proposer nor the seconder was Niall Collins), to recommend that the council hold a vote to sell the land. The council didn't have to hold the vote. The council didn't have to vote yes. Niall Collins did not vote.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,660 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Fascinating to see how some people don't think this has reflected badly on his character at all, or that Collins doesn't need to defend his reputation. Absurd indeed.

    I know if I was in his shoes, I'd be straight onto my solicitor. You're only as good as your name after all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Guildenstern


    This is Ireland. The Ditch are unearthing issues to do with a number of TDs, and their rather casual attitude to regulation and modern day procedures. The various elements of the Irish establishment have had to be dragged kicking and screaming towards something like proper regulation over the last 15 years. Conflict of interest? Sure, what's that?

    It's a learning curve for them, and something their predecessors got very much away with, to the point that it became the norm, a sort of unofficial bonus if you like, and thus they feel it's their entitlement.

    As an example. 15 years ago, the list of Revenue defaulters would take up a whole page in a newspaper. It's steadily has got a lot smaller. It just takes time for the penny to drop.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭kaymin




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    You have all the answers. He hasn't a notion of suing because he does not want them digging any further. If they could nail the Ditch, they would. Maybe they will consider a McCabe like smear campaign and get help from Tusla...

    Interesting that there is nobody behind him while he is doing the Dail statement. Usually the FFG chancers have senior ministers behind him for unity optics. Once you are explaining, you are losing. It's a question of integrity and it is sorely lacking in FFG.

    I ask again, why is the Public Standards Bill 2015 (with many Mahon recommendations) stalled for 8 years now.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    You appear unaware of what an LEA actually is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,317 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    If politicians were banned from this kind of activity Dail Eireann would be empty.

    Theyre only in Politics for this kind of inside track.

    If you're not a paid shill then you're just a useful idiot.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,969 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The alternative is a list system and sever the connection between national politicians and local constituencies.

    But I know that will never fly with both pols and voters, so we might as well get used to what we have.



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