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10kWh LifePO4 DIY Battery Addition..... Here is my write up.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    @S' - if you're not using a BMS than you are the BMS

    You can set top and bottom voltages in the inverter, but the inverter doesn't know if one or more cells are too high or too low. You will need to keep an eye on it. I ran my first 16 CALBS for 15 months without a BMS (or balancer) and all was fine. Because I am a half decent BMS 😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭randombar


    Accidentally charged up a few lifepo to 4.7, got a bit fat. Drained them off onto others. Should they still be ok? Heard they’re hardy out but still. .



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    LiFePO4 shouldn't be charged over 3.65V. But what many people don't know is that the max you can charge LiFePO4 to without doing damage is 4.2V. But you went way above that and your cells are now damaged and likely have reduced capacity. The only way to tell how bad capacity has got is by doing a capacity test. LiFePO4 are relatively very safe, but I'm not sure if I would want a cell in my home that has been overcharged that badly and is now swollen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭randombar


    Testing as we speak, only 2 cells but an expensive lesson if they're in trouble.

    I'm actually unsure what the true voltage was, bench was saying 4.7 but the cells read differently to what the bench says.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    What did the cells say that's the important one



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭randombar


    Ya didn’t measure that in the time was in such a rush to drain them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    If they're swollen, they went significantly higher than 4.2V. If it were my system, I'd order 2 new cells and not use the battery of 16 cells as is. Or only use it in controlled / safe circumstances like only when you are physically there right next to them, or if you have them in an outbuilding / shed where they can do no harm



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭randombar


    Ya I'll order another two all right, no harm, not that swollen, will send a photo later.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    How swollen?



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    I asked ChatGPT "is a swollen LiFePO4 cell dangerous?"🤣

    Answer:

    "A swollen LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) cell can potentially be dangerous, as it may indicate that the cell is damaged or has a defect that could lead to a fire or explosion.

    When a lithium-ion battery cell swells, it usually means that the internal chemistry of the cell has been compromised, such as a breakdown in the electrolyte or the formation of gas inside the cell. This can cause pressure to build up within the cell, leading to swelling or even rupture.

    If you notice a swollen LiFePO4 cell, it is recommended that you stop using the cell immediately and handle it with extreme care. Do not puncture or disassemble the cell, and keep it away from heat sources or flammable materials. You should dispose of the cell properly, following the guidelines of your local hazardous waste management authority.

    It is always important to follow proper handling and usage procedures for lithium-ion batteries to ensure safety and avoid potential hazards."


    Looks like it is not quite aware of the difference between lithium ion and LiFePO4 😅



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  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭_dof_


    I finally got my battery connected together after many months. I bought 32 CALB cells from PWOD store and top balanced them months ago, but only got them connected to the inverter though he Seplos BMS and the inverter wired to the consumer unit last week. It's a Sofar ME3000SP inverter. and I've wired the cells as 16s2p.

    When I tried to discharge it, the seplos seemed to reboot, and it didn't discharge anything. The Seplos had been reporting around 35% full, which seemed a bit low, but I figured it wouldn't be accurate till a few charge discharge cycles anyay.

    I noticed it was reporting around 100mv difference between the top and bottom cells, so I put the Sofar into charge mode to charge the battery at 400W. It didn't take long to report 100%, buy still with a 120mv voltage difference between the top and bottom cells, unsurprisingly, since there's not much real balancing going on.

    The Sofar won't discharge now, as it's reporting battery low voltage, this is the data exported from the seplos:

    I'll top balance again I guess, but is here possibly a bad cell or 2?



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    When did you top balance them, just now or months ago? I presume just now.

    Don't get too worked up about the difference in mV, I wouldn't be concerned if the lowest was 3.4V when the highest hit 3.65V (250mV difference) but in your case the lowest cell is far too low with the 3.45V cell 99% or so charged and the 3.338V cell only about 85% charged (even though the difference is only 112mV). Could of course be capacity differences between the cells, but less likely in a 2P setup. You could of course capacity test every single cell and then match the parallel pairs based on capacity



  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭_dof_


    Thanks, I top balanced them months ago, and they've been reconfigured as 16s2p for a long time waiting to get wired up, so they must have drifted over time and I'll just reconfigure them in parallel and top balance again before trying again.


    Must get myself a capacity tester, I think there was an AliExpress link earlier in the thread



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,945 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    I have the exact same setup, 32 200ah cells via Seplos and Sofar and also top balanced months before I got it all hooked up. Have you fully charged and then immediately fully discharged to allow Seplos figure out your capacity? Then just use them!

    I'd to this before taking them apart to capacity check and pair off.

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. EDDI, hot water cylinder, roof rails...

    Public Profile active ads for slave1 (adverts.ie)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    Has anyone purchased REPT cells before? I got an offer from Docan Power for some 280Ah versions which they say are closer to 300Ah in reality.

    I purchased 280Ah EVE cells from them before which they said would be closer to 290Ah and they were actually slightly above this.

    About €1,720 for 16 cells DDP from China.



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    @slave1 - "Have you fully charged and then immediately fully discharged to allow Seplos figure out your capacity? Then just use them!"

    They are out of balance and Seplos can't ever fix that. You could of course just ignore it and be happy with the likely 85% of capacity the pack has and not have to bother spending 2 weeks testing the cells (and losing money coming into the best solar PV weeks of the year because of having no battery). I've done this myself in the past.

    Alternative solution is to fit an active balancer. Either a smart NEEY or even a cheap €40 one from AliExpress that you just hook up for a week or so and then see what happened



  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭_dof_


    I tried to discharge as part of the commissioning test, even though I wat the Seplos was reporting differing cell voltages and it thought it was only around 35% full, I thought it would discharge a bit until the lower voltage cells brought total voltage to the equivalent of 15% battery capacity (which should be around 3.2V*16=51.2V), then it should have stopped discharging.

    I expected to be able to charge then until the highest cells reached the configured monomer high voltage level (from the file champoinc uploaded) of 3.6V.

    But the first attempt to discharge resulted in the Seplos resetting and nothing being discharged. So I decided to force charge it using he inverter to 400W. It did start to charge, but very shortly afterwards it reported 100% full so it stopped charging. The Seplos reported the voltages I pasted above. I assume the max voltage got to 3.6V during charging and returned to 3.45 at rest, representing 100% for those cells).

    So, I put the Inverter back into auto mode and with import from the grid it should have started dischagring, but it didn't and the event log showed an ID85 Battery Low error which is described in the manual as:

    "

    ID85

    SOC <= 1 -DOD or Battery voltage is low

    For example, if you set DOD to 30%, when SOC is less than 70%, you will see ID85 in the event list. ME3000SP won’t discharge the battery when ID85 is present. Or This is an indication of low battery voltage. ME3000SP won’t discharge battery in this case to ensure long battery cycle life.

    "

    The DOD is set at 85% in the inverter I think, so it shouldn't reach a battery low voltage until the battery pack voltage reaches (16X3.2v=) 51.2V, but it's still reporting 54.63V in the Seplos output above, so that's at rest. I'm wondering if the voltage drops below 51.2V when under load, but that would be a big voltage drop, and could indicate some faulty cells?

    I'm a bit confused TBH, and trying to understand how this all should be working.



  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭_dof_


    I'm afraid I can't ignore it, since the inverter won't currently discharge the battery due to the low voltage alarm.

    I'm hoping a a fresh top balance will fix the issue, but if there's some faulty cells causing a voltage drop under load, then I could have a bigger problem.

    I wash thinking about the active balancer option, but I was thinking that if I manually top balance again and all cells are equal voltage then the minimal balancing that the Seplos can do should be enough to keep it balanced, but maybe that's optimistic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,122 ✭✭✭championc


    Is the Seplos definitely integrated into the Sofar (i.e. is it setup as General Lithium) ?

    And don't go back into configuration to check settings. You should go into the information menu screen 5 onwards



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    15% capacity isn't 3.2 v it's more like 3v especially under any sort of load



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  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭_dof_



    Yep, it's configured as general lithium and is communicating correctly to the Seplos



  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭_dof_


    Thanks, I was just using the voltages mentions at https://footprinthero.com/lifepo4-battery-voltage-charts.

    Even worse then, it should only be reporting low voltage alarm at around 48V then, but it's recording 54V under no load.

    When I was trying the commissioning discharge test and put it in auto mode, the grid draw at the time was only around 300W, so it should have only been discharging at that level so wouldn't expect a big voltage drop I guess, certainly not 6V?



  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭_dof_


    I'll try another discharge test later if I can, and monitor the battery voltage with the multimeter throughout



  • Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭Sligobuck


    A good insight into the very rare occasion a Lifepo4 battery goes bad.


    🌞 8.60kWp PV System. Comprised of 6.2kWp @ 235° azimuth + 2.4kWp @ 145° azimuth, roof angle @ 35°, North Sligo 🌞



  • Registered Users Posts: 65,320 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Those are EVE type cells. The CALB type cells that most of us are using (as per the OP) are far sturdier.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    The alarm has come from the seplos, but on the me3000 it won't discharge anymore until it charges the battery a bit first.

    You'll need to be able to either log or watch the voltages to see what's actually happening(loose bolt? It can throw low/high cell voltage issues, has caught most of us out at some point)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭randombar


    Updates for those interested in my battery mishap:

    Photo before I switched on the meter:

    Next

    Next

    Looks like it's nearly there, current has dropped way down so how do I know or what would people say the actual capacity is?



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,389 ✭✭✭randombar


    I think it shows low while draining. Maybe? I’ll check the voltage when it’s fully drained see what it says.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭munsterfan2


    You dont want to discharge the cell below 2.5v generally. Check the voltage across the terminals with a multimeter

    "Tip 1: Never over charge/discharge a cell!

    The most common causes for premature failure of LiFePO4 cells are overcharging and over-discharging. Even a single occurrence can cause permanent damage to the cell, and such misuse voids the warranty. A Battery protection System is required to ensure it is not possible for any cell in your pack to go outside its nominal operating voltage range,

    In the case of LiFePO4 chemistry, the absolute maximum is 4.2V per cell, though it is recommended that you charge to 3.5-3.6V per cell, there is less than 1% extra capacity between 3.5V and 4.2V.

    Over charging causes heating within a cell and prolonged or extreme overcharging has the potential to cause a fire. EV Works Takes no responsibility for any damages caused as a result of a battery fire.

    Over charging may occur as a result of.

    1. Lack of a suitable battery protection system
    2. Faulty of infective battery protection system
    3. incorrect installation of the battery protection system

    At the other end of the scale, over-discharging can also cause cell damage. The BMS must disconnect the load if any cells are approaching empty (less than 2.5V). Cells may suffer mild damage below 2.0V, but are usually recoverable. However, cells which get driven to negative voltages are damaged beyond recovery.

    On 12v batteries the use of a low voltage cutoff takes the place of the BMS by preventing the overall battery voltage going under 11.5v no cell damage should occur. On the other end charging to no more than 14.2v no cell should be overcharged."



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