Council refusing to take over small housing estate

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 12:56pm #1

My house was built in 2007 along with three other houses in a small development of 7 houses in Co. Meath. The remaining three houses were built privately.

The developer lives about a mile down the road from the estate and one of her responsibilities was to build the roads, paths, water treatment services etc... A private builder was brought in to built the houses who went bust about 90% through the build and the three houses were left somewhat unfinished.

Around 2013 a management company for the development had been set up with the builder and one of the residents who lives in one of the private houses on the board of directors. The four houses were sold around this time and shortly after the builder wiped his hands of it and one of the new residents replaced him on as MD.

About a year into living in the estate we started to notice the roads and paths were cracking and there were issues with the drains. The road has also collapsed in some areas and at one stage a tractor tipped over bringing sandbags to a neighbours house. Luckily our public liability wasn't brought into question. After discussing this as an estate we decided to apply for the estate to be taken over by the council. We did this in 2019.

In early 2020 we received a letter from the council. In it they outlined problems with the estate amounting to almost €60,000. They said they were not prepared to take over the estate.

Going back over records, the developer was sent an enforcement letter back in 2008 to finish the estate and did so but clearly didn't complete the works to an appropriate standard.

Where do we stand on this? Should the council have come in an checked the estate back in 2008 after the enforcement letter was sent and checked that the works were completed or does this fall back on the developer.

We need the estate taken over. Its not possible for us to manage the roads, lights and pathways going forward. Some residents in the estate are worried about the developer getting into trouble.

Any thoughts?

Mrs OBumble · 28-04-2023 1:12pm

What did your lawyer advise about these risks when you purchased the house?

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531859#Comment_120531859

When we bought the house, the estate was visibly in good order with no visible areas of stress on the tarmac. Our engineer checked the house itself and was happy. He did not check the estate. When we all moved in, this increased traffic into the estate with bin trucks, lorries etc... and very quickly the road started to crack. We had it checked and it is missing a vital component of the sub-base. Also, there are joins along the road from where another road was originally. One of the houses is having trouble with drainage resulting from poorly positioned drainage holes in the estate. All of this was pointed out by the council in their 2020 report. A council engineer would have spotted the issues had they visited following the enforcement in 2008, but I'm presuming they didn't or signed it off as it was. Issues such as road signs were also highlighted by the council in their 2020 report.

L1011 · 28-04-2023 3:00pm

Talk to the more experienced/competent seeming local Councillors. Every Council in the country has had to deal with taking unfinished estates in to charge; particularly in the last decade.

And nobody should give a toss if the developer gets into trouble; although realistically that won't happen.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 3:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532397#Comment_120532397

We've included two local councillors in the correspondences but they both know the developer. Such is country life and tight knit communities. I suppose we could approach someone else.

The developer has family links to some of the residents in the estate and also some of the people we are dealing with in the council who have stopped responding. You couldn't make it up.

Mrs OBumble · 28-04-2023 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532365#Comment_120532365

The engineers report on the house is irrelevant.

Did your LAWYER not give you advice, or did you choose to ignore it?

Caranica · 28-04-2023 3:52pm

Who owns the common areas? Has the management company taken it over from the developer? If so, the management company, ie all owners could be liable for the costs. You need to go through your documents in detail to see what your liability is and then see if the lands have been transferred.

It's not automatic that Councils take developments in charge any more. We're 19 years old here and still a private development with no Council involvement.

Varik · 28-04-2023 4:43pm

Few things.

Developer/building leaving management company after all properties are sold is normal.

What maintenance was done over the years?

The way things are Councils love filling the bit of green space in an existing estate with new houses.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532627#Comment_120532627

I'm not sure how my lawyer is relevant to this. This is a housing estate, not a private issue relating to my own property.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532637#Comment_120532637

The common areas were transferred over to the residents after the houses were sold. Yes, the council are saying we are liable for the costs as the management company is made up of residents. By law the council has to take over a housing estate if the majority of residents sign a document to do so which we have done but the council won’t take it over because they are saying the estate is not suitable due to problems with the road etc...

As I mentioned in a previous post, the council sent an enforcement letter to the developer (not the builder) to complete works in the estate before the houses were sold. He did some of this but not all of it if the councils 2020 report is anything to go by. Also, the work done by the developer was not completed correctly and the estate is now falling apart. Why didn’t the council flag this back in 2008?

There is a bond paid to the council by the developer in case something like this happens. They must use it to take over the estate, and fix it. The problem is, the council won’t respond and there are too many grey areas in the local laws surrounding this kind of thing.

Do we just let the estate fall apart?

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532836#Comment_120532836

We all maintain the green areas. The roads have not been fixed. We fix broken fences and on occasion one of the residents climbs up the light posts to replace the bulbs. He’s stopped doing this because its too dangerous.

It’s a small rural development. Theres nowhere for more houses to be built.

Granolite · 28-04-2023 5:39pm

if to comply with a planning condition the Developer lodged a bond - for finishing out of the estate or covering off costs associated with the Developer going into administration prior to completion of the estate - do you have recourse to taking a civil case against the council for possible non enforcement of the planning conditions?

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 5:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533021#Comment_120533021

It's a private estate. After the houses were sold the residents assumed ownership of the common area.

We (the management company) applied for the roads, lights and pathways to be taken over by the council in 2019. This is normal procedure. Usually it’s done before the houses are sold by the developer but it wasn’t in our case. By law the council must take over the estate if the majority of the residents request this. As per my previous message, they are refusing to take it over because they are saying it is not up to standards.

Please read the messages guys. I’m repeating myself a lot. I’m wondering if anyone has experience with these things. It’s not as simple as some people are making it. The council are obliged to take it over but they are making it difficult and failed to ensure that the common areas were built to building standards.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533033#Comment_120533033

That's what I’m thinking. I’m wondering if that is something we might be able to pursue with the council. I’m just not sure who’s fault the shoddy common are is. The developers, the councils or both.

Granolite · 28-04-2023 5:50pm

It does sound a complicated scenario. I imagine there would be quite a long record of correspondence on file to wade through to see if any party has reneged on their legal obligations somewhere. It might be worth employing a solicitor experienced in planning law to advise your residents committee and go from there.

walterking · 28-04-2023 6:37pm

Firstly, the director of the OMC that also was the developer must resign as soon as the last house is sold.

That is a legal requirement. He did not "wipe his hands of it"

The OMC effectively owns the common areas and the OMC is made up of the owners of the houses.

You need to check every document in the planning file and see if there's an insurance bond in place, though I suspect it has expired at this point.

I was in a similar sized estate of holiday homes. We made sure that €300 of the management fee (€700) went into a sinking fund as we expected having to redo the road at some point (15 years was the time line suggested) and also we were mindful of the storm drain. I'm not there anymore, but the preference of all owners was to keep it private.

I think the issue is that a sinking fund has not been built up rather than anything else.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533116#Comment_120533116

The developer “completed” the enforcement order in 2008. After the residents applied for the estate to be taken over in 2019 the council responded by saying the estate wasn’t finished to appropriate standards. There is nothing on record from the council in between. Surely the council would have sent someone out to check that the enforcement order was completed to building standards? Something fishy here if you ask me.

I agree that it’s not the tax payers responsibility, but it’s not our responsibility as residents to pay 60k to fix an estate because the council didn’t check the development was completed correctly before the houses went on sale.

The estate was in no means a mess when we bought the houses. It looked like any estate. When you get into the nitty gritty you can see that the developer cut corners and the council either turned a blind eye or didn’t send out an engineer in the worst part of the property crash to check the estate was okay.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533244#Comment_120533244

You do have a point and that is the approach we would take if we wanted to keep the estate private, but we don’t. We already pay €800 a year per house for waste treatment and tree cutting. I won’t get into the details to protect all members involved. Also, some residents aren’t prepared to pay for the road privately as it doesn’t affect their property.

Our plan from the start was always to hand the common area over to the council. We waited a few years as most families were just getting settled.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 28-04-2023 6:51pm

Check the original planning. If this was originally planned as a multiunit development the council doesn't have to take the estate in charge.

The fact that there has been an issue regarding the non completion of the estate may give the council an escape from having to take the estate in charge but I feel that surely an issue raised in 2008 should have been closed allowing the estate to be taken in charge.

Mrs OBumble · 28-04-2023 6:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120532957#Comment_120532957

You weren't just purchasing a house you were purchasing a share in the management company.

It was in that company's interest to make sure that the council were happy with the work back in 2008. It sounds like they totally failed to do so or even to recognise that they, as a company had obligations.

Your lawyer should have been checking for any issues with the MUD Act and with completion and advising of the risks involved: I'm guessing you just closed your ears to anything you didn't want to hear.

How much is in your sinking fund?

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533304#Comment_120533304

All of the residents were happy to take over the estate privately for a short time until everyone was settled. This was 2013, the houses were partially unfinished and everything was checked thoroughly by all parties involved. The issue for us arose when the road started to break apart. Unfortunately none of us, including anyone on the management company at the time had any idea that what lay under the road wasn’t up to building standards. It’s the developers fault, but the developer was never part of the management company. The builder was was.

Developer: land and estate

Builder: houses (the houses are perfect)

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533295#Comment_120533295

Yes, I’m presuming the issue raised in 2008 should have been closed which is the only leg we have to stand on really. Only an engineer from the council would have noticed the road wasn’t done right. I don’t know why it wasn’t raised at the time before the houses went on sale. This is where I think the council messed up.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533338#Comment_120533338

We keep a certain amount in the bank account to cover bills, public liability insurance and general maintenance. Nothing has been put aside to maintain the road. 3 of the 7 houses want to create a sinking fund to cover the road but the other houses don't really join the conversation as the road is okay outside their houses.

A poster above mentioned a holiday estate. Is it normal for residents in private housing estates to create a sinking fund to maintain roads and pathways? If you think about it, it's on a matter of time before the road will need resurfacing anyway, never mind the situation we are in.

RJellybean · 28-04-2023 7:33pm

According to the office of the planning Regulator (Opr.ie) "Even if a development has not been completed to the satisfaction of a local authority, if four years have passed since the expiry of the planning permission and no planning enforcement action has been taken, a local authority is obliged to take the development in charge if the majority of the homeowners submit a written request"

OP you mentioned in your original post that enforcement action took place in 2008. This could be a reason the council are not obliged to take it in charge.

astrofool · 28-04-2023 7:45pm

Is there a yearly fee for running the OMC? Things like lights/general upkeep would then come out of this. A sinking fund would need to be setup for roads/paths to replace them as needed or if there were any issues (e.g. drainage)

If the issues were resolved (i.e. €60,000 paid to get everything correct) would the council then take over? (as it sounds like that's what's needed to happen in the absence of a bond or insurance on the works completed by the builder before they handed the estate over).

You may also find that post-works, it's more advantageous to stay private.

zg3409 · 28-04-2023 8:11pm

I suggest you get legal advice based on all paperwork. As others have said the council may have no obligation to take over the land and the homeowners may or may not have any obligation to pay for remedial works. If it's a private shared road, then a decision would be made by owners to fix it or not and pay the cost to do so. However you need to find out your legal position, and other owners legal position. You may be able to legally force them to pay, but getting the cash out of them may be a different matter. You may be able to force the council legally but again council don't seem keen.

You can't really get good advice here as it depends on legal documents that may or may not exist with clauses that may or may not exist.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 8:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533412#Comment_120533412

We are aware of this clause and according to one of the residents who works in the area, they are obliged to take it over. They are simply creating a barrier to this with the €60,000 snag list they sent us in 2020.

Yes, you might be right about the date being passed although we did find something recently that outlines where the estate wasn't finished to appropriate standards, the council is obliged to use the bond to fix the issues and then take over the estate. It's all a bit wordy though and we may need to get a solicitor to look at it.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 8:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533443#Comment_120533443

Yes, I believe if the 60k worth of works are completed by us then they will take it over. We all pay between €800 and €1000 per year to maintain the usual bits in the estate including waste treatment.

n.d.os · 28-04-2023 8:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533541#Comment_120533541

Thanks for the advise. Yes, I think you are right. It's complicated with so many houses involved and something I expect will drag on for years.

01-05-2023 9:26am

The council do not want to inherit the estates problems. In order for the council to consider taking over the estates the owners will need to rectify the current issues first and have it handover ready. The council will probably also insist on surveys after the works have been completed to ensure its been completed to the correct standards after. You can't really expect the council to pay 60 grand to fix what is currently a private road.

n.d.os · 03-05-2023 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542046#Comment_120542046

They should have checked the estate after they sent an enforcement order to the developer to complete paths, roads, lighting and drainage. None of the work complies with building standards so the council and the developer are to blame. Not the residents and we shouldn't have to pay for it. The council should with the bond they received from the developer. By law, they have to take over the estate and are simply trying to avoid it. If it was okay to run with these standards in every housing development, then the whole country would be falling apart. It's the councils responsibility to monitor all building works and in this case they took their eye off the ball during the property crash and let this happen. We've even had someone from another county council agree with us.

Council refusing to take over small housing estate

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