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Any explicable reason why Judge Martin Nolan isn't under greater scrutiny by media + the state?

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24

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  • Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    It puts more value on money than violence on children and women

    twisted individual



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    This. This is why it's so hard to get rid of a Judge, basically protected by legislation:

    Who can complain?

    Complaints about the conduct of a judge can be made to the Judicial Council. You cannot complain to the Judicial Council about the outcome of your case. You can complain to the Judicial Council if you are any of the following:

    You were directly affected by the alleged misconduct

    You witnessed the alleged misconduct

    You are a parent or guardian of a child, or you are authorised to act on behalf of an incapacitated person

    An authorised officer of the Bar Council of Ireland (for barristers) or the Law Society of Ireland (for solicitors) can make a complaint on behalf of a barrister or solicitor.

    Time limits for complaints

    You must make the complaint within 3 months of the alleged misconduct. The time limit may be extended if the Judicial Council decides that there are good reasons for doing so.

    3 months? Why only 3 months? Statute law has 6 months. Because "f^3k you I'm a Judge", that's why. Good to see that petition is only 3.5k signatures away from 50k, making it one of the most popular current petitions. It'll go nowhere though because it doesn't look like there's a proper complaints procedure open for people, only individual incidents which have a 3 month time limit and you basically need to be part of the case to make the complaint. Madness. I would like to say Karma has a way with these, and indeed there was a Judge in Waterford who was quite soft on sentencing, until he was attacked. I believe he caused a spike in over-sentencing appeals thereafter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    The problem is the appointment process and training( or lack thereof)

    Currently if you or not involved in FG/FF/GP you are not getting on the bench.

    Once you are on the bench, there is no guarantee that you will work in a field that you practiced in.

    Given the effect court judgements have on people's lives be it Civil, family, criminal, commercial etc when need to get serious about the appointment process to recruit and train the best suited to the job.

    I've been involved in court work for 25 yrs and it is very rarely the brightest and best that make the bench but more often mediocre barrister looking for the slow lane.

    In Martin Nolan's case, it's important once he is a judge that there is no political interference in his rulings, but some type of judicial oversight/guidance might be appropriate.

    There is also the higher appeal court for the DPP



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    In Martin Nolan's case, it's important once he is a judge that there is no political interference in his rulings, but some type of judicial oversight/guidance might be appropriate.

    i agree totally. You can’t have a legal system that can be interfered with by politicians. Elections are one way we hold politicians to account…how do we hold judges to account? There has to be some way to allow us to improve the system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The DPP needs to appeal these sort of lenient sentences more often.

    Concurrent sentencing should only be allowed in exceptional cases.

    And we really need to build an additional large prison not add a few beds here and there.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Honestly I don’t understand why there hasn’t already been a prison built. The same reason for people not being sent to prison is there’s no space but then there seems to be nothing done about it? 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Because building a prison costs money, which they would have to divert from other areas that the voters are affected by. So no one has the balls to tell the public that you can't keep getting everything for free and we want to lock up criminals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    I read on twitter McEntee had introduced a method/system to raise concern with what were considered negligent judicial outcomes?

    I haven't seen it put to great effect just yet, but I saw that a few months ago.

    And yes, there must be some kind of system where judicial rulings can be more intensely scrutinized.

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Building a new prison would ease the housing crisis a bit 😉

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    I'm all for it. Build 2!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    Or politicians could re-examine legislation criminalizing homeless drug addicts to free up space for actual violent criminals:


    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    None the less there is consideration to building another prison, apparently:

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    The Irish media are overwhelmingly left wing , left wingers tend not to be in favour of stiff sentences ( unless it’s for misgendering etc ) so Judge Nolan’s lenient philosophy doesn’t really catch their attention



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,984 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    If the majority are from addiction/poverty, and a new prison makes more sense than "upgrading" the joy, then maybe we should build a prisoner soley for people who addition/poverty issues, make it a treatment prison, and keep the joy and it's "inhumane" conditions for the hardened criminals, the proper scumbags, murders, rapists, etc. Seems like a no brainer to me...

    I also agree with decriminalising drug use. But with that we need the proper treatment for addictions. So I'll say it again. Legalise cannabis, tax it so that it's still cheaper than black market and direct 100% of those taxes to building/staffing/maintaining drug treatment facilities. It's a win/win imo. If priced properly, the tax take will quickly outgrow the expenditure needed and can then be funnelled elsewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,507 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    In any of the cases you’re alluding to did the judge violate the sentencing guidelines set forth in the law by the legislature and signed into being by the executive?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Leaving aside the judge in question for the moment, there's the inconvenient fact that our prison system is now at overflow capacity. It's all well and good sating public demand for heavier sentances, but if there's nowhere to put them, and I think the judiciary is acutely cognisant when they sentance.

    Now, many will say we need more prisons, and that might be true. Currently, our prison system is both at overflow and our largest ones from the Victorian age. They are recidivists factories. But, the Governor of Mountjoy has actually come out and said several times we should look at capping the prison population and to consider are we imprisoning the right people, and for the right amount of time. That's food for thought even if you want to call the Governor of our largest prison a Johnny softc*ck on crime.

    If one takes a look at similar sized countries like Finand and Norway, their prison population is under 3k in both instances, we're heading towards 5k and coudl well breach that number next year. But what is notable about both Nor. and Finland is that their recidivism rate is markedly lower. That could partly be chalked up to societal reasons (both countries have a lot of sh*tty people as well believe it or not), but also if we're to be frank, because their focus is on reducing recidivism above all things - and the conditions are built around rehabilitation and reintroduction to society.

    That's going to be massively unpopular in certain quarters, and I realise there is an unlimited appetite among many for the maximum sentance to be applied in the worst possible conditions when they read newspaper headlines on Facebook. It's also a multi-billion euro project if we're to be serious about reorientating the prison system towards preventing further criminal behaviour - also something Irish people are unlikely to have an appetite for.

    The other alternative is leave things as they are, roll the dice and hope for the best that the people going into our prisons don't become worse people than when they went in. Even the notion of building bigger prisons in the hope it will magically work doesn't seem to wash. If simply imprisoning more people for longer worked, the US would be a crime-free paradise. All the evidence points towards super-prisons being crime factories however. New York State is moving towards shutting down Rikers Island because it's such a mess and an advanced finishing school for criminal behaviour.

    This site is interesting to cross-compare rates of imprisonment and other related stats versus other European countries. We imprison at a rate of 90 people per 100k of population. Factoring in that our remand/pre-trial detainees are generally a lower part of the prison population than others (similar to the UK) - along with the UK, we tend to imprison people more than other Western European countries, but less than Eastern Europe which tend to have significantly higher rates of incarceration.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    less than Eastern Europe which tend to have significantly higher rates of incarceration.

    Yeah that's not exactly an endorsement.

    Eastern Europe is basically the gangster-flank of the block.

    There's been umpteen calls for preventative policing, but the fact that AGS is trending toward losing upward of 500 staff this year alone doesn't bode well for policing of any orientation.

    A lot of debate in relation to both the political and Commissioners agenda, what the ideals the former are trying to accomplish with their open-border policy, and the latter is trying to accomplish with his sideways roster protocol.

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    And re idealism, politicians should absolutely be hauled over the coals for some bill, and lack of bill passing.

    Drug reform policy, if it's proven to potentially genuinely affect prison numbers, should be top of the list.

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Yes, but look at what money is being spent by our government on things that don’t benefit a single Irish person.

    yet stuff we do need like extra prison places… nothing…

    as the population explodes we are in big trouble without proper and responsible investment in infrastructure like prisons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Lionel Fusco


    The facts are of course that Nolan's sentencing is largely in line with the guidelines if it wasn't his sentences would be appealed more often also Judge Nolan gets the majority of criminal cases hence why it seems his sentences are lighter when in fact they aren't.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    The DPP has to prioritize cases based on available resources, which means that not every problematic sentence will be challenged. It is not an indication that all of Nolan's sentences are appropriate, but rather that the DPP must allocate its resources to ensure the most significant cases are addressed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,323 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I disagree. They are there because of the crimes they chose to commit….plenty of people have a rough turn in life but still remain within in the boundaries of the law. Looking for excuses and now a prison governor seeking to make some for them..

    why is a prison governor being allowed to go to the media ? With his personal opinions ? Surely that craic should be pre approved by his superiors…



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    In terms of crimes perpetrated by drug addicts, I guess one would be referring more so to the actual purchase and use of drugs, which is criminalized and liable for jail time.

    Presumably a number of inmates are incarcerated for this reason.

    I agree, of course there should be no exception for crimes perpetrated by substance abusers, using the idea they are as such, to excuse their actions.

    Of course not.

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    People who work for the prison service are not mutes, and they don't need permission from anyone to speak.

    I for one am interested to hear what the governor of our largest prison has to say. If he says the system isn't working, it's probably worth listening to his perspective.

    It's worth a hell of a lot more than people going off on a mad one online demanding a reversion to Victorian gulags because they think they know how a penal system should work instead of a man that has lived-it and worked within the system for decades.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,415 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Jailing drug addicts just for being addicts is ridiculous. Drug possession should be decriminalised. And we should be grateful that somebody who actually knows what he is talking about is willing to speak publicly. the alternative is somebody just parroting the government line. that serves nobody.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭Sugar_Rush


    North Dublin TD Paul McAuliffe has been advocating for drug decriminalization (obviously not including distribution decriminalization).

    Again we don't have stats to confirm the percentage of inmates being incarcerated for drug use/possession exclusively, but if that would make a genuine impact on prison numbers, you'd think the political system would get behind decriminalization sooner versus later?

    Harris/McEntee have historically tended toward moral righteousness however, versus practical outcome.

    In physics we trust....... (as insanely difficult to decipher as it may be)



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    So it'd be legal for me to possess drugs for personal use.

    But the person who sold them to me committed a crime, and so on up the chain. Has he thought this through at all?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,415 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    They have. It is the system currently in place in Portugal.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭charlie_says




This discussion has been closed.
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