Development Pathways

I think you'll find I didn't.

The post you're quoting was from me at 2:18pm:

Whereas, you'd already posted this at 2:13pm, which is the first mention of recruiting to cover this absence.

Yeah, I think this is a fair comment on balance.

I looked at the stats comparing the two academies over the past 10 seasons (would do similar for Ulster or Connacht if they had the data clearly located somewhere), and while Leinster are far more productive overall, there is evidence that Munster have been more productive and giving more opportunities in recent seasons.

If you exclude this year's intake (2022/23) for both teams, then Munster have had 71 players in their academy from 2012/13-2021/22, and Leinster have had 75 over the same period. 29 of those 71 are still with Munster, and 41 of Leinster's intake are still with Leinster.

Leinster's academy graduates played 2,737 times for Leinster, versus 1,397 for Munster's players. Leinster's academy garnered 501 Irish caps versus 23 for Munster.

12 of Leinster's 75 players never played a senior game for Leinster (and some interesting names in there: Gavin Thornbury, Billy Dardis, Harrison Brewer) + some unfortunate injury retirements (Charlie Ryan, Mark Hernan).

26 of Munster's 71 players never played a senior game for Munster.

39 of Munster's 71 played 5 or fewer games, 19 of Munster's players played 20 or more games.

24 of Leinster's 75 played 5 or fewer games, 38 of Leinster's 75 played 20 games or more.

2 Munster players made over 100 appearances, 9 Leinster players made over 100 appearances.

8 Munster players were internationally capped. 24 Leinster players were capped internationally.

Comparing class by class every season, every single year the Leinster group garnered more Leinster caps than their equivalent class did Munster caps.

The international caps are higher for Leinster in every year bar 2013/14 (3 for Munster to 1 for Leinster) and 2020/21 (3 for Munster to 1 for Leinster), and the median number of club appearances is higher for Leinster in every year except 2020/21.

Munster have only 2 years where the median number of caps by their academy players is in double digits - (52 caps is the median for the class of 2016/17 which contained Gavin Coombes, Shane Daly, Calvin Nash, Fineen Wycherley) and (34 is the median for the class of 2020/21 (Crowley, Buckley, Kendellen). Munster have 4 years where the median number of caps is zero. The average median (if that makes sense) number of caps in any given academy class for Munster is 9.6 (skewed highly by the class of 2016/17).

Leinster by contrast have only 2 years where the median number of caps is in single digits - 2015/16 (5 cap median) and 2021/22 (3 caps median). Just like Munster's most productive ever class was 2016/17, so was Leinster's. That group gained 548 total caps (72 median) plus 182 international caps (this was Connors, Deegan, Keenan, J O'Brien, Porter, Ryan, Larmour). The average median (once again, hope this makes sense) number of caps in any given academy class for Leinster is 30.

The overall median number of caps for Munster over the period is 3, whereas for Leinster it is 20.

EDIT: For the sake of completeness, I excluded this year's class because you wouldn't expect these guys to have international caps etc yet, but had I included them, it would have been a continuation of the same trend - Leinster have awarded 19 caps to their current Year 1 class, versus 4 for Munster).

If you look at the last three intakes (so including class of 2022/23), Munster's 17 players have played for Munster 133 times, versus Leinster's 23 players who've played for Leinster 164 times, so some indication of a greater willingness to back youth in recent times. Contrast this with the period 2012-15 where 22 Munster players across three intakes earned 551 caps, while the 22 Leinster recruits earned 1,358 caps.

A lot of numbers in that, and denser than I'd hoped, but hopefully makes sense.

I've no interest in going round and round on this with you.

You're asking "who was calling for NIQ signings" and I highlight a number of fans calling for it. Clearly I was referring to fans on Boards here, as opposed to Graham Rowntree out calling for the signings ffs.

You keep highlighting this point around Leinster having "low leverage" minutes, but Leinster intersperse their young players into their squads all through the year, not just in garbage time games at the end. At any point this season Leinster would have given substantially more minutes to academy players than peers.

The production line in Leinster is unquestionably better than the other three Irish provinces, and has been for 10 years + now, but in addition to that, I think the coaching and development has been considerably better in Leinster too.

There are countless examples of players who have visibly improved to a significant degree after they join the Leinster system - look at guys like Josh van der Flier, Hugo Keenan or Dan Sheehan - all relatively unheralded underage prospects who absolutely nobody would have seen as being amongst the very best players on the planet within a couple of years.

To take your viewpoint on this as factual would reduce the role of Head Coach / Director of Rugby down to nothing more than simply identifying the best players, picking them and setting out the tactics. There's a lot more to it than that.

Where did I claim Tector played must win games?

Leinster's average winning margin in games won this season is 21 points. Based on your views here, none of Leinster's replacements ever get meaningful minutes.

My numbers differ slightly, but would broadly align. Think they're slightly skewed lower in the Leinster case by injuries suffered by Jamie Osborne, Tommy O'Brien and Joe McCarthy, with really only Tom Ahern the only Munster player who you feel would have played a fair bit more but for injury.

I have said multiple times throughout this thread (and the predecessor) that Munster have improved significantly in this regard of late. I don't think these stats are illustrative of Munster outperforming Leinster in this area. A key distinction you've overlooked here is the starting position of both sides, prior to the period you're assessing for. Leinster won multiple league titles on the bounce, won a European Cup in 2018 and lost finals in 2019 and 2022, and are bulk suppliers to an Irish squad that won Grand Slams in 2018 and 2023.

And yet still, they've integrated a broadly similar number of players as a Munster side who are trophy-less for well over a decade.

See this is the main fallacy that a lot of this has been built around, I honestly don't have a big issue with Munster signing more NIQ players.

I don't have a problem generally with any province signing NIQ players, when it's in situations of need or players of exceptional quality. I've spoken multiple times about how I would 100% see the logic in Munster signing a high quality (Malcolm Marx style) player at hooker for example, an area where Ireland are stacked, and Munster have a need.

I don't think there is a need though for multiple NIQs at half back. It seems the URC won't commence until post the group stages of the RWC, so it's not totally crazy to think a Year 3 Academy 9 and and a Year 2 Academy 9 could tide you over that period, especially as you'll still have Neil Cronin (unless he's leaving too). At 10 you'll likely have Joey Carbery and Tony Butler, with possibly another 10 coming into the Academy.

I don't think I have been the one making noise about it. You felt the need to create a new thread because it appears as though anything remotely resembling criticism of Munster is unacceptable in the Munster thread.