DART+ (DART Expansion)

Maybe a DART type shuttle that's still connected to the main Irish Rail network, so intercity services could avail of it (i.e. express train from Cork/Limerick-> Dublin Airport). Issue with that though is currently they would have to stop in Connolly and driver would have to switch ends, which makes the benefit of a direct train less desirable, may as well just switch to a Dart-type service then.

This is nonsense. Metrolink works well because it is standalone and therefore it can deliver a very simple, extremely high frequency service without being compromised by having multiple different types of services going lots of different places. Your plan is essentially to replicate all the problems of the current heavy rail network in Dublin but on a much bigger scale. Metrolink is a new departure and with it being driverless, it will truly be future-proofed.

You won't have intercity trains running through such a tunnel because they are, and will be for a very long time, diesel trains. It's the same as ideas which are predicated on quadtrack the northern line, it's planning for something beyond the lifetimes of any of us while ignoring the realities of today.

What you suggest is not scaleable, it is the exact opposite of scaleable. Mixing commuter services and intercity services brings limitations and undermines both. We need to separate them as much as possible going forward, not replicating the same issues. This is why Metrolink will work so well - it will have huge capacity and won't be limited by external factors. After Metrolink, everyone will be crying out for more high speed, high frequency, driverless metros, no matter what you do the Victorin aheavy rail network will never be able to compete when it comes to urban transit.

You can see this in practice with DART+, after spending €X00m on Coastal North. Journey times for north of Drogheda will increase and Howth becomes a shuttle so a deterioration for some but these are the trade-offs which have to be made. There are baked in limitations, why would you plan major investments to have the same limitations? It's the same with the DART airport spur, it would be a poor service itself and everything else would be compromised to accommodate it.

Electrification of the city centre network might happen by the end of the century, it is stupid to plan the network around that. Intercity trains need to terminate at a suitable location (i.e. Heuston), running them through the city in a new tunnel only eats up tunnel capacity for little benefit. If travelling from Cork to Dublin, having the choice of multiple stations to get off in central Dublin might be nice but not something the network can be designed around. A city terminus and changing to high frequency local trains/metro to continue journey is the norm in most cities.

And driverless heavy rail trains with many services running different stopping patterns on various merging lines is a long way off. Driverless intercity trains in Ireland is again end of the century at best, needs electrification first and there are lots of Level Crossings on our network. If you think there will be driverless trains across our network within 10 years then you are completely detached from reality.

Not long back from London and I've used the DART the last couple of mornings to get to city centre, usually cycled to work before i was away. Currently sat outside Connolly somewhere for 7 minutes, same thing happened yesterday.

Zero announcements from the driver! What's that all about? You stop at a red for 45 seconds in London and they always have to say something. So you're just sat here not knowing wtf is going on.

Also will DART+ make these stops even worse?

How is this not sorted by now? It was the same when I was going to college over 20 years ago. So so bad.

Yes if it was a well run service imagine how fast you could get from stop to stop in the city centre and beyond. It fecks around and Pearse and coming into Tara all the time too and the drivers never seem to put their foot down. Very frustrating service I'm starting to remember why I always chose to cycle instead when going into town.

To be technical, it’s a mock-up, not a prototype!

So has it been officially articulated anywhere as part of this consultation process what exactly the impact will be on frequencies and journey times of non-Dart services of the northern line? I know there's been various comments and discussion here about how an all-stopping dart service from Drogheda is going to result in slower journeys from Drogheda but I am surprised that no negative impacts have flagged for Dundalk or Enterprise services.

Just continuing in terms of potential, if any, for 3Kv DC / 1.5kv DC, multi-voltage EMU DARTs (X’Trapolis) for Irish Rail, there already exists for comparison etc. the;

-       X’Trapolis 100, and X’trapolis Modular (years 2005, 2015 & 2022), Broad gauge, 3kv DC EMUs, in Chile, &

-       Renfe Spanish, Civia, Broad gauge, 3kv DC, 120kph (can be modified to 160kph…).

Some of the benefits of 3 KV DC, over 1.5KV DC, include;

-       Potential to use only half as many Sub-stations,

-       Less heavy/ less materials overhead wires, and so somewhat lighter catenary.

Though again, 3Kv DC would seem to be technically contingent on if - clearances in existing, south Dublin, and Bray/ Greystones tunnels would be acceptable, or could be upgraded, noting…

 –  25kv AC upgrade ruled out for that above reason,..

(and also including forecast excessive cost of conversion of 1.5kv DC DARTs - to 25kv AC)

(not sure if 1.5kv DC, to 3kv DC upgrade of existing DARTs would be as significant)

- The benefits of familiarity of 1.5kv DC, less vulnerability/disruption impact of lost substations, and smaller size of sub-stations for 1.5kv DC, vs. 25kv AC noted in a DART+ electrification report (available online).

Noting the electrified line to go as far as Drogheda (and sometime to Dundalk, and to Belfast), and near future Enterprise new trains to be ordered,..

…3kv DC could in the ‘short’-medium-term, more easily allow for up to 200kph, even 220kph (137mph) speed, and up to 250kph…

The 125mph/200kph speed band, has more usually been mentioned for the future Dublin-Cork line electrification.., but not sure about the Dublin-Belfast future line speed. 

Notwithstanding last year’s talk of ‘High-Speed’ lines.., talk later moderated to ‘Higher-Speed’. 

The next speed band –

-       220/230kph operating speed (to 250kph max. with 3Kv DC Italian established ETR460, and noting Spanish Class 130 & 730),.. could be a more up-to-date, and more ambitious target,.. on the part DART+ line to Belfast, without trying to get into ‘top level’ high-speed. 

The voltage of 3kv DC could for the north line, and two west DART+ sections could better get IE into higher speeds, before 25kv AC ever appears on the remainder, main routes longer term.

Plenty of modern stock around in 3kv, 1kv/3kv, and mixed with other voltages, are used around the world in DART+ and suburban and inter-urban etc. system/ routes from west, central and east Europe, and north Africa (Morocco), South Africa and South America(Chile)), and for some comparison to to the DART+ proposals and ordered stock:

These 3kv, 1.5kv/3kv DC etc. EMUs include Spanish ETR 490, Class 130 & 730 & Civia, Italian ETR 460, & 421-621, & ETR 324/425/526, Netherlands ICNG (3300 only), Russia/ Siemens ES2G, Czech Skoda 7EV, Polish Pesa Elf & Newag Impuls, Ukrainian/ Hyundai (like IE’s ICR) HRCS2, Morocco/Alstom RGV2N2, (and loco’s in those countries with/ incl. 3kv DC), etc..   

If i was in charge of the "crayons", I would move the station slightly further north, and extend the "howth branch" under the northern line, toward Coolock and an eventual meeting with Metro North, Santry, Finglas and maybe the Maynooth line, basically make it an orbital line for the northside.