Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gatling · 03-05-2023 12:35pm

Did someone forget to lock the koolaid cupboard,

Christy42 · 03-05-2023 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549986#Comment_120549986

And when you negotiate peace and Russia invades again in 6 months time? Do you again negotiate more of Ukraine to hand over? And then 6 months after that you can negotiate some of Georgia and then a bit more etc.

Appeasement failed for a simple reason and trying the same thing repeatedly and hoping for different results is not a great solution.

odyssey06 · 03-05-2023 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549603#Comment_120549603

Multiple times you have been asked to provide proof of your statements of fact such as "Russia has killed an estimated 150,000 Ukrainian soldiers."

Completely unable to do so. Conclusion - It is a Russian lie.

Your claims about Minsk 2 thoroughly discredited already on the thread.

Your claims about Johnson and Zelensky thoroughly discredited already on the thread, in a direct reply to you, and you ignore it and repeat the same canards.

Your claims have no credibility, they are based on Russian propaganda lies.

None of your claims stand up to scrutiny. Here is the last time you made the same claims and they were thoroughly discredited.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502876#Comment_120502876

Dohnjoe · 03-05-2023 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549986#Comment_120549986

In case you missed it, the ceasefire violations prior to the war increased massively in the week prior to the invasion. The autonomous region and Ukraine were having something of a mini war.

Russia has been massing troops on the Ukraine border since 2021 in preparation for the invasion.

"The autonomous region"? It's Eastern Ukraine, which Russia had been proxy attacking for 8 years prior.

I see no point in throwing thousands more Ukrainian and Russian soldiers into a slaughter pit. From where I am sitting, I think the best we can do is to petition for peace.

Putin doesn't want peace. Ukraine doesn't have a choice but to either give in or to defend themselves. That's it.

If Ukraine makes an agreement with Russia, Putin will use the time to rearm and break the agreement. Putin will never stop until a) the entirety of Ukraine is invaded or b) he is militarily unable to invade Ukraine.

You want other countries to pressure Ukraine into rewarding Putin with land, who will only reinvade when it suits him again. That's your "solution". If not, explain your peace petition.

pixelburp · 03-05-2023 1:40pm

It's telling that the entirety of this latest round of contrariness is built upon the foundational principles that Ukraine has to be contrite, not the invading force. Because they're so big and strong, Ukraine should bend the knee. Still waiting to learn how corruption might justify a war, but I'd be a fool to wait.

All the while there's this affectation of concern for Ukrainians; a mass of people thus far singularly, apparently, unmoved by any thoughts of capitulation. Indeed quite the reverse: it's almost like the population, both Ukrainian and Russian speaking, see themselves as Sovereign and feel they should fight to retain their country's status and desire toward self-determination - a country I might add, that has existed in a more robust and demonstrable fashion than Ireland has been over the centuries IMO. I'd sooner listen to those folk than Armchair Chamberlains. Does Ukraine just exist as this buffer state between the EU and Russia for time immemorial, just to assuage the Russo-Nationalists? Sounds like Empire Games to me, how very Western. Poland would have words.

Ultimately, all the waffle in the world can't escape the reality: a single man could end this war, in a sentence, by sunset today. Putin chooses not to (and you can debate the reasons why as a separate topic, not least the likelihood of his death swiftly after any retreat), and instead we repeat the same Talking Points that try to make Ukraine at fault. A vulgar geopolitical equivalent to the victim of sexual assault, being told not to have dressed so provocatively in the first place.

Dohnjoe · 03-05-2023 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550244#Comment_120550244

"A vulgar geopolitical equivalent to the victim of sexual assault, being told not to have dressed so provocatively in the first place."

Being told to sit down and have talks with the rapist, while being raped.

Fighting Tao · 03-05-2023 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120549986#Comment_120549986

You make it sound like the invasion was a last second decision by Putin and that he had 200k troops amassed on the Ukraine border with no notice.

Antipathetic · 03-05-2023 7:21pm

It's pointless arguing against the chicken hawks who are here on boards quite honestly I think some of them are getting off on the videos of Russian soldiers being killed. This war will end as all wars end with both sides negotiating. Until then let the chickens sit here and fester in their safe space of hatred against anyone who dares to utter the call for peace.

grumpyperson · 03-05-2023 7:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550017#Comment_120550017

Sorry can't recall being requested multiple times. Here is a source.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-gathering-storm/

estimates 150 - 200k dead. It's a horrible figure if true.

McGregor has been very outspoken so maybe he's completely wrong. I find it hard not to believe as he spends most of his time discussing artillery and cites a much higher rate of artillery fire from Russia and refers to artillery as being a determinant of outcomes in modern warfare. Others such as Ray McGovern who recently spoke to the UN about the Nordstream pipeline seem to have a similar position.

It seems to be mostly old timers like Hersh, pilger, etc that have a long history of exposing government lies to be speaking. Perhaps because they can't get fired or maybe because they are just making up stories and don't care about their legacy of honest investigative reporting.

Gatling · 03-05-2023 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551729#Comment_120551729

Well twice the numbers of orcs have been slaughtered and left to rot in the fields of Ukraine,and it's about to get a hell of a lot worse for them, they brought war to Ukraine and now Ukraine are going to bring war to them,

All of your posts have been nothing but lie after lie while preaching peace, there could be peace tomorrow if Russia packed up and went home, but that's not going to happen so now they face the coming storm ,

Leave or die ,

They chose Die ,

This is going to be Glorious

Gatling · 03-05-2023 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551624#Comment_120551624

Another post full of lies ,

The Orc's had a choice leave and we get peace or die and be left to rot in the fields of Ukraine,

There's a bit of a smell in here and it doesn't involve Chicken hawks

odyssey06 · 03-05-2023 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551729#Comment_120551729

You were asked for the numbers several times, including the numbers behind your 7-to-1 ratio in favour of Russia. Zero evidence provided. Your claims have zero credibility. Your sources are just propaganda pieces.

The article is evidence of nothing. It's not even clear whose estimate it is. One article links to another, none of them with any factual or evidential basis for the claim.

This what weasel words look like in an article - admit you don't know, but then point to scary big numbers.

How many Ukrainian soldiers have died is unknown, but one recent estimate wagers between 150,000-200,000 Ukrainians have been killed in action since the war began, while another estimates about 250,000.

The estimates are not estimates, they aren't even guesstimates. It's just numberwang, numbers pulled from thin air by people on keyboards. No attempt made to explain source, or comparison with Russia or basis for the figures. They are invented numbers in anti-US \ anti-NATO opinion \ propaganda pieces.

Antipathetic · 03-05-2023 8:26pm

Proof here is proof that 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed from none other than the European president.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-russia-von-der-leyen-death-toll-1763553

Of course the Ukrainians weren't happy with what she said I guess according to them the only ones allowed to lie are the Russians meanwhile we are stuck with a bill paying for their conflict.

Antipathetic · 03-05-2023 8:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551758#Comment_120551758

You're right there is a smell in here the smell of your racism just because you see them as your enemy doesn't make it right for you to be racist.

odyssey06 · 03-05-2023 8:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551843#Comment_120551843

That is proof of nothing. Thoroughly discredited canard.

The article goes on to say:

She added: "The estimation used, from external sources, should have referred to casualties, i.e. both killed and injured, and was meant to show Russia's brutality."

Gatling · 03-05-2023 8:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551861#Comment_120551861

Racism....

We're talking about the invasion of Ukraine by Nazi Russians who are committing genocide,and numerous other war crimes against the population of Ukraine,

grumpyperson · 03-05-2023 8:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551760#Comment_120551760

On the 7 to 1, I provided an article written by the judge. I didn't download the leaked documents, I'm not a reporter and didn't want to download classified US documents. If you have a problem with article I suggest you contact the author/ publisher or download the classified US documents yourself. I am not going to download the documents for you.

If you have an issue with McGregor's estimate maybe take it up with him or the American conservative that published it.

Let's imagine the number was 10,000 Ukrainian's, would it be rational to send another 10,000 to their death by an opponent way bigger army and more weapons or would negotiations make more sense?

odyssey06 · 03-05-2023 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551897#Comment_120551897

They were doctored images. That shouldnt fool anyone in 2023.

You are strangely incurious about sources yet all too happy to cite the figures to support your position.

If you arent prepated to do basic due diligence on claims from unusual sources you should not cite them as fact. They should come heavily caveated.

This is how your position becomes the same as intended by Russian propaganda. So no dont suggest to me I do your work for you and contact grifters and Russian useful idiots and bloggers. Absurd nonsense. You are citing them as sources not me. The onus is on you in what sources you pick.

When challenged you are completely unable to stand over any of the claims. I have pointed oit to you the numbers are either doctored or plucked from thin air.

Any claim of fact you have made has been shown to have zero credibility consequently.

Ukraine know the stakes. They know the cost. If they decide to fight on it is their call. That is rationality.

They know Putin has violated previous treaties with Ukraine multiple times. And in Chechnya signed a peace treaty then regrouped and returned and flattened cities.

I see no rationality in listening to those who, with no rational basis or explanation as to how it would lead to a lasting peace, urge a Budapest mark 2 on Ukraine.

How would it be rational to repeat the same mistakes and expect different outcome?

Antipathetic · 03-05-2023 9:16pm

I posted a reliable source and you shot me down almost immediately why do you not believe the words of the president of the European commission?

You can go to Google yourself for other sources if you like. Unless you assume the European commission president doesn't know what she was talking about.

Gatling · 03-05-2023 9:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552029#Comment_120552029

She was wrong clearly stated in the Article "UNVARIFIED"

This was debunked months ago

odyssey06 · 03-05-2023 9:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552029#Comment_120552029

If you read the actual article and has been pointed out to you already... the reliable source goes onto say:

She added: "The estimation used, from external sources, should have referred to casualties, i.e. both killed and injured, and was meant to show Russia's brutality."

But sure just read the headline and keep repeating a discredited number.

Oh wait you said it was a reliable source so now you have to accept the correction from same source.

Fighting Tao · 03-05-2023 9:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551861#Comment_120551861

Anything recent because that was identified for the nonsense it was at the time?

Podge_irl · 03-05-2023 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552029#Comment_120552029

She said 100,000 Ukrainian officers have been killed. This would imply about 500,000-1,000,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed.

She misspoke (while speaking in a second language) and clarified it afterwards.

Christy42 · 04-05-2023 12:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551897#Comment_120551897

Think about it for half a second. The Russian army started off as the far larger force, Russia as a world superpower. If the kill ratio was 7 to 1 in favour of Russian then how the flying f have they not taken over Ukraine at this stage.

You get that as the side that was expected to win before the war began and you cripple the already weaker enemy that badly then you have the war wrapped up in a few weeks. Not over a year.

As for last point is it better for Ukrainians to fight Russia now or when Russia has had a chance to regroup and rearm? Stop hiding behind the negotiation word, no one is that stupid to expect that Russia would not simply invade again.

04-05-2023 8:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551897#Comment_120551897

"Let's imagine the number was 10,000 Ukrainian's, would it be rational to send another 10,000 to their death by an opponent way bigger army and more weapons or would negotiations make more sense?"

The basis of negotiations are already there. The US have listed what it believes would be fair. I think they can convince Zelensky to accept them. Just need Russia to accept them, can you post your comment on a Russian forum requesting Russia accept the US negotiation position please?

As for the way bigger army... crickets ... The Zulu's had a much bigger army than the British defenders at Rorke's Drift. The modern day Zulu's are rushing open ground likewise. Hopefully they'll be smart enough to likewise retreat. The Ukrainians don't have that option, as they are fighting an existential battle. 100,000's of Ukrainians would be murdered or relocated in the event of coming under the Russian dictator's control. It's what Nazi's do. They'll certainly move Ukrainan's out of the East where the minerals are and from around Odesa and other coastal areas.

Or, if you think Putin would be a benevolent dictator, and treat the Ukrainians only as bad as he treats his fellow Russians - can you give reasons as to why you would believe that?

Dohnjoe · 04-05-2023 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551624#Comment_120551624

I protested against the Iraq war. If you can't address points don't make these kinds of accusations about others.

Everyone wants the war to end, the difference is that some individuals who claim to support peace are indirectly supporting Putin. Individuals who claim to be anti-war are really just anti-West. People like Mick Wallace and Clare Daly come up with short statements about Putin being evil and that they want peace, yet they systematically vote against Europe in favour of Putin.

Dohnjoe · 04-05-2023 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551729#Comment_120551729

That's a right-wing blog, it's "source" is another blogger who provides no source and admits it's all speculation

https://imetatronink.substack.com/p/ride-across-the-river

"The following is a speculation; a flight of fancy, if you will."

"The Armed Forces of Ukraine are now a depleted shell. The tally of soldiers killed in action is almost certainly at least 150,000 – and very arguably in excess of 200,000, with the irretrievably wounded likely double the number of killed."

No source.

Both writers exhibit extreme views.

"The Ukrainians are quite literally groveling for more of everything from their NATO handlers. But the NATO armaments cupboard is now bare. And despite grandiose pledges of large new shipments of NATO equipment, the reality is proving to be a pale shadow of the promises."

I suggest getting information from credible sources not these Tucker Carlson types.

jmreire · 04-05-2023 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552213#Comment_120552213

You are right Podge_irl, but the truth does not suit antipathetic and his somewhat slanted views.

Antipathetic · 04-05-2023 12:06pm

I think it is abundantly clear that she meant 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers English isn't her first language so I think she can be forgiven for making a small mistake with wording.

But if you want to believe the Ukrainian propaganda that they have lost almost no one then by all means continue living in ignorance.

Also the Russian army is now bigger than it was at the start of the war and one US general has admitted most of their military has been unaffected.

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-army-bigger-than-start-ukraine-war-us-general-2023-4?op=1&r=US&IR=T

But I'm sure you will write off what he says as well guess he must also be on the payroll of Vladimir Putin

04-05-2023 12:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120553709#Comment_120553709

There's a large difference between 100,000 and zero deaths. You're right, English is not her first language and so she erred, and meant casualties (not deaths).

Russia military unaffected/getting stronger? Explain then how very poor their performance has been. Have they been treating Ukraine with Kid gloves so far do you think? Just a little rapey, child murdering, but holding back their military? 🙄

Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Comments

"The following is a speculation; a flight of fancy, if you will."