Lowering the driving age

How is it a strawman argument?

You want kids to walk/cycle more, if they do, this will be the consequence. Be brave enough to back your argument.

Speaking of strawman arguments, it doesn't matter to the people killed or their families what mode of transport they were using, they are just as dead.

137 people died in 2021.

Where do you draw the line between an acceptable and unacceptable level of death on the road?

To continue your argument, people should NEVER use the road in any form, since there is a risk of death, as you said, it doesn't matter what the mode of transport, they're just as dead.

to clarify, your argument is a strawman since you're grossly exaggerating the risk and drawing false equivalencies.

There is no "line" between acceptable and unacceptable deaths (as I presume (and hope) you know in your strawman argument) but we should do things that minimise deaths while still having a functional society.

It's hilarious how you accuse me of grossly exaggerating, when I've stated provable facts, and you are, well, grossly exaggerating..

No it actually strengthens it - back then the average family car was much slower, as was traffic on our roads in general. There was also much less traffic on the roads.

It is far more dangerous for a pedestrian or cyclist on a rural Irish road now than it was 30 years ago, and I say that from experience.

Why, can you not make a coherent argument against him either?

We're not far from agreement.

I think from a pedestrian / cyclist safety pov, then speed is probably the major consideration.

I agree that there would be a lot of work to be done to ensure it's not a free for all. Though at the moment, 16 year olds can drive tractors, and if you see the size and speed of tractor trailer combos being driven around rural Ireland during sileage season, a car should be a cinch for most of them!

If the age was lowered, I think we would need to introduce driver ed into schools, and look at electronic safety aids in cars driven by younger drivers (speed limiters, mileage restrictions etc.).

I'm not fully convinced it's a good idea, I just think that the argument originally made here that kicked all this off - that nobody in Ireland needs a car - is a patently silly argument, and isn't a reason to not lower the age.

I be for raising to 21 and for tractor driving also

Why stop at 21?

Make it 40. Most of us have the ould speed freak worn out of us by then.

That work vehicle licence dated from a time when most tractors were little bigger than ride on lawnmowers. Faintly ridiculous now.

You're making a strong argument for stopping the proliferation of one-off rural housing.

Drop it.

Crisis? What crisis?

It's hard to argue that a sixteen year old should be driving a 20-tone machine at 80 kmh all summer.

Seriously, it's crazy.

It's patently silly to suggest that a sixteen year old needs a car. What about a fifteen year old? Or a fourteen year old?

No sixteen year old needs a car.

Time to drop out of this discussion as one of the protected species is now flooding the thread with off topic rubbish and can't be challenged.

Absolutely no issue with it, they can drive massive tractors that are super powered juggernauts compared to a car (if you’ve ever driven one you know what I mean) . It’s experience that makes good drivers, not age. Dunno why older people want to keep their foot on young peoples heads, no wonder we have the generational issues we have. Let them drive, give them some independence young in life, and cut the apron strings.

Funny thing about your comment....the grandson, when he hit 16, and got his first license for tractors, he began driving for a local farmer throughout last summer. and TG, he got on very well. He's no stranger to driving agricultural machine, jCB's etc around the farm, but with little experience of driving on the public roads. He has now been booked already for the coming season with the same farmer, so he's all set to go. Meanwhile, he's turned 17 and has got the provisional car driving license, done the 12 lessons and applied for the test. But after the first one or two lesson's I was asking him how it was going and he replied" WOW!! I never realized that there was so much to driving on the public roads." Now he has done the 12 required lessons and is wiser ( and poorer) and has completely different views on driving than he had this time last year. But its a crazy system here in Ireland...in my day, anything over 2 ton ( pre metric) needed a HGV license, and of course any tractors on the road were maybe only 20 or 30 HP ( if that) But you are right about what's on the road today was never imagined when the tractor licenses were introduced. Its completely crazy.